Keenan Cornelius: "No-Gi Is Imploding Because Of Leg Locks And Wrestling"

[ChainFlow]

Not sure anyone is saying no gi favors athleticism over technique, I'm certainly not. But assuming the same skill level, IME strength and speed go farther in no gi than gi, where an equal or more skilled player can shut down your strength and movement with grips. Of course both require good technique to be successful which is why I train both.

You're neglecting the massive impact strength has on obtaining, clearing, and maintaining grips, and the fact that grips allow you to utilize strength to restrict movement in a way that is significantly harder in no-gi - both in passing and maintaining dominant positions.

Now, if there is a skill differential of great size (to where the lesser skilled person is not aware of efficient methods of stripping grips or how and where to strongly grip themselves), grips allow the more skilled practitioner to absolutely toy with a novice in a way that is uncommon in no-gi. That should not be generalized to contests between two athletes of relatively even skill.

 

[Solidus Snake]

He literally says he was a fan of no gi before. That was his first love actually. But as time went on and he learned more gi techniques, that's his new love.

I surely exaggerated with never but time ago (maybe after adcc 2017) I remember reading he didn't enjoy that much competing no gi anymore. I don't find the bit as of now tho, possibly somebody misinterpreted him at the times, IDK. But between this latest interview and that other old one, and the fact he's most famous (and likes to play most) with his style on gi guards with entaglements I think it's natural he prefers gi by a good margin.

Personally I agree with your second post anyway, once people will become very good defending or countering what's most used at the moment, the art will keep on evolving and bring back things that seemed out before and so on..

 

[ChickenBrother]

You're neglecting the massive impact strength has on obtaining, clearing, and maintaining grips, and the fact that grips allow you to utilize strength to restrict movement in a way that is significantly harder in no-gi - both in passing and maintaining dominant positions.

Now, if there is a skill differential of great size (to where the lesser skilled person is not aware of efficient methods of stripping grips or how and where to strongly grip themselves), grips allow the more skilled practitioner to absolutely toy with a novice in a way that is uncommon in no-gi. That should not be generalized to contests between two athletes of relatively even skill.

You'll get no argument from me on this. But I would add that gi grips can act as "handles" or "levers" that can provide better leverage than would be possible in no gi. So a comparatively weaker person can control or shut down a stronger opponent in a way he wouldn't be able to in no gi.

 

[rmongler]

You'll get no argument from me on this. But I would add that gi grips can act as "handles" or "levers" that can provide better leverage than would be possible in no gi. So a comparatively weaker person can control or shut down a stronger opponent in a way he wouldn't be able to in no gi.

In practice though, it's not really how things tend to play out.

That Rafa vs Rodolfo match at the 2011 Abu Dhabi world pro could not have possibly happened the way it did in the gi.

 

[ChickenBrother]

In practice though, that's not really how things tend to play out.

The Rafa vs Rodolfo match at the 2011 Abu Dhabi world pro could not have possibly happened the way it did if it were in the gi.

I've not seen that match. What happened?

YMMV and there's always exceptions, particularly at the world level. But in practice it IS the way it has tended to play out for me in 12 years of grappling gi and no gi.

 

[rmongler]

I've not seen that match. What happened?

Rafa played open guard (of course), while Rodolfo stayed on his feet.

Vieira, a world champion and several weight classes up on Mendes, had a very hard time getting anywhere close to finalizing a pass, and scored no points. He won on a referees decision.

If it were in the gi, it's likely Rafa would have been smashed and passed within the first three minutes, possibly multiple times even. The reason is because grips can let you 'stick' the opponent in place, giving you greater ability to bring your weight and strength to bear against someone weaken and smaller. The lack of such easily available handholds is what allowed Rafa to stay mobile and prevent Rodolfo from solidfying on him.

Roger Gracie vs Romulo Barral, at the 2009 worlds, is a good example of the other side of this.

 

[yetanother]

YMMV and there's always exceptions, particularly at the world level. But in practice it IS the way it has tended to play out for me in 12 years of grappling gi and no gi.

It depends on who you are grappling with.
I do feel that in no-gi a lot of the time it's the fault of the weaker opponent that he is engaging is a strength battle with and getting trashed.
With the gi I can just grab on, tripod and crush a lot easier.
The smaller guy gains the ability to do lapel trickery but with no-gi it's a lot easier to just avoid strength.

 

[yetanother]

I've not seen that match. What happened?

YMMV and there's always exceptions, particularly at the world level. But in practice it IS the way it has tended to play out for me in 12 years of grappling gi and no gi.

It's a good match because Rafa's no gi approach is the sort of style that how he avoids engaging in a brute force war. If he tried squeezing really hard and doing gi technique he would have been literally crushed by Rodolfo.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Rafa played open guard (of course), while Rodolfo stayed on his feet.

Vieira, a world champion and several weight classes up on Mendes, had a very hard time getting anywhere close to finalizing a pass, and scored no points. He won on a referees decision.

If it were in the gi, it's likely Rafa would have been smashed and passed within the first three minutes, possibly multiple times even. The reason is because grips can let you 'stick' the opponent in place, giving you greater ability to bring your weight and strength to bear against someone weaken and smaller. The lack of such easily available handholds is what allowed Rafa to stay mobile and prevent Rodolfo from solidfying on him.

Roger Gracie vs Romulo Barral, at the 2009 worlds, is a good example of the other side of this.

It depends on who you are grappling with.
I do feel that in no-gi a lot of the time it's the fault of the weaker opponent that he is engaging is a strength battle with and getting trashed.
With the gi I can just grab on, tripod and crush a lot easier.
The smaller guy gains the ability to do lapel trickery but with no-gi it's a lot easier to just avoid strength.

Agreed.

It's probably an over-generalization to say no gi is "more athletic." What I was referring to is wrestling style pressure and scrambling. Wrestling was my first grappling style and like someone learning a second language, I've approached Judo and now BJJ from that perspective - even though I haven't trained or competed in wrestling in many years.

Rolling no gi for submissions feels a lot more like "wrestling" to me in that I find myself trading positions and constantly scrambling more than I do in a gi (except for passing closed guard stalemate). And as a relatively stronger guy, I'm able to slip out of bad positions and sub attempts more readily than I do in gi.

But you both are right, grip strength to facilitate gi grips is an aspect of "athleticism" that doesn't exist in no gi/wrestling. While it does make a difference on the ground, particularly in passing and in holding/stalemating a more skilled player, it's a real game changer in takedowns, which is why any competitive Judoka will fight like hell to deny you grips, rather than conceding and then trying to break them, as I've found a lot of BJJ guys tend to do.

 

[Evenflow80]

I know I'm still very much in the minority , but count me in the very small group who sees very little difference between gi and nogi. In fact despite needing more athleticism and is much faster paced , I end up much more exhausted rolling in the Gi than nogi due to friction and heat and added weight and constantly fighting grips.

Maybe it's because I train 3 days nogi and 3 days gi in the average week so it's exactly 50/50. I'm not sure

 

[flikerstance]

no gi surely isnt the same a sit use to be the scoring system may be the same but way guys play isnt guys primarily stand up when on top which kills triangles armlocks ect and wrestling becomes a lot more into it vs the gi

id say no gi today is submission wrestling not no gi bjj anymore at least at above blue belt

 

[dmwalking]

no gi it is less technical, no way around that. It favors the more athletic guy, no way around that, but after all its way better for mma and its also much fun, no way around that too.

It's only less technical in the sense that it has less techniques available. But to be effective, you still need the best technique. Marcelo being GOAT and beating bigger guys helps make that point. You can say the gi favors the most athletic too if you look at top competitors looking like PED models. Just my opinion.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I know I'm still very much in the minority , but count me in the very small group who sees very little difference between gi and nogi. In fact despite needing more athleticism and is much faster paced , I end up much more exhausted rolling in the Gi than nogi due to friction and heat and added weight and constantly fighting grips.

Maybe it's because I train 3 days nogi and 3 days gi in the average week so it's exactly 50/50. I'm not sure

I'm onboard with your sentiment. Maybe I should rephrase my post to say that no gi is more akin to wrestling and wrestling style "athleticism."

Getting stuck on bottom side control or half guard in a gi really gases me out from the heat, friction plus other guy controlling me with grips. In no gi, I'm more readily able to turn into him and fish for a single, or just push him away and start back neutral.

I will say that in gi, if I'm on top and need a 10 or 20 sec breather, I can lock down bottom guy with grips to dictate the pace. But in no gi, I'm at his mercy in terms of pace - if he continues to scramble I have no choice but to do the same.

I've also found that gi choice has an impact. Grips aside, rolling in a very thin, very form fitting BJJ gi almost feels closer to no gi than rolling in my tent-shaped Judo double weave. That jacket alone probably weighs 10 lbs when it's completely sweat soaked, and rolling in that thing in the summer with no A/C should be considered a form of hazing.

 

[shunyata]

Not sure i see Keenan's plaintiff in the same view here.

'The direction of optimization in grappling is not going in the same direction as my preferred habits in grappling'

Okay then.

Pretty much.

"So it's turning into catch wrestling"

To me that not an implosion it's an improvement.

But then again I don't mind catch at all and I prefer the meta game in nogi.

Bringing back the importance of a smothering top game, understanding how to defend and attack with the legs, and using takedowns and takedown sweeps (coming up into singles etc) are all things I welcome with open arms.

One could even argue that those evolutions are shoring up major weaknesses in the BJJ metagame (undervaluing top game, leg attacks, and wrestling).

Being able to guard yourself from a non dominant position is really important in a fight, but so is enforcing your position on the opponent.

 

[DatCutman]

Obviously I think Keenan has his own personal biases and preferences that inform his word choice, which is why he intentionally uses those with negative connotations.

That aside, I think the overall message is more so that the positional strategies are coalescing and solidifying in nogi, while gi seems to still have multiple viable positional strategies and/or still be in overall flux. True in some parts, false in others. The lighter weight gi game is pretty solidified as to what works and what doesn't. These days the biggest changes come from optimizing small efficiencies (i.e., like oilfields, where a drill bit that is 3% more effective can lead to millions of dollars in savings). The Ultra heavy matches haven't changed in 20 years. I think there are a few weight classes in gi where you see some wild changes in technology, strategies, etc. Coincidentally same weight classes that are the most exciting/changing in nogi.

Personally I think Keenan just has a specific way he likes to play, and it just doesn't work as well in Nogi, and progressions along that vein appear to be an implosion to him. It's like taking your Standard Magic Control Deck, going into a Modern competition, and being shocked at how fast paced and aggressive everything is. There are still control decks, but the way of playing control is different, and he doesn't enjoy it. But Modern isn't "imploding" to aggro decks (though technically I view the boom of the leg lock meta as the equivalent of a combo deck, which preyed upon aggro and dies to controlled passing), it's just different.

I've reached a weird point where Gi and Nogi both require insane amounts of athleticism, just different types of movement patterns/profiles, so I don't particularly subscribe to the "gi/nogi is more strength based" mindset anymore, but who cares what I have to say.

 

[dirtyfighter40]

The same thing he complains about in no gi would happen in Gi, if the IBJJF would get off their ass and allow leg locks and leg reaping.

Protecting a sport by nerfing it as IBJJF has done doesn't make it better. It makes it less interesting and boring to watch.

Craig Jones just demonstrated in his match with Tex how to counter leg attacks without disengaging, refuting Keenan's primary argument.

 

[Foxflechette57]

So are we in France 100 years ago?

No we are not

Plaintiff is to do with a legal complaint, yes it is the complainer, but in a legal setting only

So you are totally incorrect

You also spelled it wrong, and added an extra f to the end

So don't come like you knew what you were on about after doing a Google copy and paste job

he is actually right..

 

[mataleaos]

Obviously I think Keenan has his own personal biases and preferences that inform his word choice, which is why he intentionally uses those with negative connotations...Personally I think Keenan just has a specific way he likes to play, and it just doesn't work as well in Nogi, and progressions along that vein appear to be an implosion to him...

The strange thing about this to me is that not only is Keenan super successful in no-gi (multiple time ADCC finalist as well as double bronzes and multiple time NoGi Worlds champ) but he never seems like he's struggling. Frankly he makes it look pretty easy. Keenan has (and has had since 2012) one of my favorite no-gi games to watch and I think he's incredibly creative in that realm. Some of the stuff he does may not have taken off in popularity the way his gi innovations have, but I believe even Gordon Ryan said for a long time he looked to Keenan as his main no-gi inspiration.

If you watch that highlight Hello Japan did for Keenan's no-gi stuff a few years ago I've never seen anyone's highlight reel that had such a variety of submissions finished frequently on it. Not to mention the separate highlight on sweeps, passes, and back takes.

Keenan is a savage without the gi and it's always been strange to me that he doesn't seem to enjoy something he's so good at.

 

[mataleaos]

I know I'm still very much in the minority , but count me in the very small group who sees very little difference between gi and nogi. In fact despite needing more athleticism and is much faster paced , I end up much more exhausted rolling in the Gi than nogi due to friction and heat and added weight and constantly fighting grips.

Maybe it's because I train 3 days nogi and 3 days gi in the average week so it's exactly 50/50. I'm not sure

I'm in the exact same boat. I train an even split and I'm always more tired gi than no-gi. I'm not trying to make any overarching statements about this being objectively true outside of my own experiences. I also think one reason I think this way is I trained in both at a school where no one ever told me they were so different. We did the same things in the fundamentals and advanced classes, and the instructors weren't saying "if it were gi you could do this." Or "If it were no-gi you couldn't do this." It was all just jiu-jitsu to me.

Add this to me seeing Renzo, Rickson, and Royler fighting in PRIDE without gis, as well as the old Gracie In Action tapes where even Royce wasn't wearing a gi. All of this added up in my mind and I just never thought the gi was this crucial aspect of BJJ. I never saw no-gi as another thing until 2011/2012.

It wasn't until I got MendesBrosOnline in 2012 where I saw how much Rafa described the differences. Even on MGinaction (which I got in 2009) Marcelo showed a similar game in both and didn't stress too many differences.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I've always felt no gi was more athletic and less complex. It's why I used to prefer it - I was usually the more athletic guy and against lower level guys I could just overwhelm them with wrestling pressure. Against more skilled guys I could at least hang and make it a stalemate by wearing them down and slipping out of bad positions that would have me dead to rights in gi.

i actually feel the opposite. in gi you see so many big strong people who can dominate with the power they generate through their gripping, or gymnastic types (keenan among them) who can invert and weave their way into labyrinthian control points. no gi has always felt more honest to me, and perhaps the simplified menu of effective techniques is evidence of that.