Max all time great

[filthybliss]

All favorable match ups for him so far.

Strickland, Jiri, JH, Izzy, Bruno, are all strikers. His toughest fights have been against Izzy who deployed a ground attack on him and Janz.

can't exactly fault him since all the top dawgs in his divisions are strikers. this anko fight will be good test, nonetheless.

 

[blaseblase]

saying islam is rash, i agree. but i see him undefeated for quite some time.

Well he's not undefeated and he hasn't defended the title against a lightweight yet. His resume is lacking. The future will decide if he's GOAT material but he's not now.

cain beating jds 2x, bigfoot 2x, and brock is something hard for me to say that max is better than him p4p when he played second fiddle to volk for so long. i'd argue ubereem is higher p4p than max too tbh

Beating 3 fighters doesn't get you on the GOAT list. Be honest, these are just your favorite fighters.

 

[filthybliss]

Well he's not undefeated and he hasn't defended the title against a lightweight yet. His resume is lacking. The future will decide if he's GOAT material but he's not now.



Beating 3 fighters doesn't get you on the GOAT list. Be honest, these are just your favorite fighters.

i like them and i like max too. but khabib is routinely hailed as being the best p4p ever for having 5 dominant wins against cream of the crop talent. so i don't see how saying cain is in the top 15 to ever to do it controversial.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

If Volk didn't exist Max might have like 10 title defenses right now and we'd be talking about him right alongside guys like GSP, Silva, Jones etc.. None of the other greats had to face somebody as good as Volk imo. Just look what he did in the first Islam fight, Islam is a massive lightweight not to mention immensely skilled yet the fight was super competitive with many saying Volk won. The 3 Volk losses really put a dent in his legacy. If Max does what Volk couldn't and beats Islam and Topuria that will restore the balance somewhat and we can say "Maybe Volk was just a bad matchup". However I think even if Max beats Volk it doesn't Matter much now, Volk will be 36 or older.. Not to mention he just got ko'd twice in a row.

 

[DatSamboKid]

People forget Max Holloway was just 20 years old with a 4-0 professional record when he made his UFC debut. Let that sink in for a bit. Now, he’s 32 with a 26-7 professional record. He's accumulated 29 fights, 22 wins over 12 years, defended his title three times, competed in 10 title fights, landed the most significant strikes in UFC history, and has the most finishes in Featherweight history.

Max Holloway is a legend. Where he lands in the GOAT rankings really depends on how he finishes his career. But one thing’s for sure, if Holloway retired tomorrow, he would be a hall of famer and arguably the greatest Featherweight in UFC history.

I’ll say this, if Holloway beats Topuria, that would be a legendary accomplishment, and it would be hard to argue against his case. But losing three fights to Volkanovski will always be a tough reality that impacts his legacy at Featherweight.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

If Volk didn't exist Max might have like 10 title defenses right now and we'd be talking about him right alongside guys like GSP, Silva, Jones etc.. None of the other greats had to face somebody as good as Volk imo. Just look what he did in the first Islam fight, Islam is a massive lightweight not to mention immensely skilled yet the fight was super competitive with many saying Volk won. The 3 Volk losses really put a dent in his legacy. If Max does what Volk couldn't and beats Islam and Topuria that will restore the balance somewhat and we can say "Maybe Volk was just a bad matchup". However I think even if Max beats Volk it doesn't Matter much now, Volk will be 36 or older.. Not to mention he just got ko'd twice in a row.

Our opinions are similar but I’d argue Cormier is a harder fight than volk, at least the DC from back when Jon fought him.

I understand the challenges of volk and he’s a great fighter but DC edges him out imo.

I’d also argue fedor has big nog on his resume, which I would put on a similar level. These guys whom were around and if the #1 guy didn’t exist we’d have them in the top 5 all time.

I think that’s the difference for me. I’ll put max in that 5-10 spot when all is said and done I’m assuming, but he’ll never be in the top 5 because there are actually guys who’ve had fights like that and didn’t lose.

GSP also had the BJ penn fights

Do you see where I’m going with this? Part of the issue is exactly what you’ve said. These guys in the goat conversation DID have their volkanvskis in the picture. But they won, and they sure as heck didn’t lose 3 times.

Most of the guys in the top 5 have someone who a lot (not everyone) of people would rank as a top 25 guy all time.

 

[DrRodentia]

saying islam is rash, i agree. but i see him undefeated for quite some time.

cain beating jds 2x, bigfoot 2x, and brock is something hard for me to say that max is better than him p4p when he played second fiddle to volk for so long. i'd argue ubereem is higher p4p than max too tbh

I feel like Cain spending most of his prime fighting 2 guys (one of which knocked him out) really hurts his overall legacy status. He ended his career with 14 wins overall, 4 of which were against JDS and Bigfoot. Cain feels more like a "what if" kind of guy rather than a GOAT conversation.

 

[laleggenda27]

drug test me then brother. henry beat dillashaw, cruz (goat BW) and DJ (arguable p4p goat and goat flyweight)....was a 2 division champ.

max lost to volk 3 times, dustin and mcregor. never dominated in 2 weight classes like cejudo did. i agree his wins against aldo, pettis and edgar are impressive. i wouldn't fret if you said max was an inch above cejudo but to act like they are not comparable p4p when cejudo has beaten divisional unamiously seen goats is comical.

You're overplaying Cejudo's resume a bit. I've always said that Cruz was the BW GOAT, but that's not the version of Cruz that Cejudo beat. Cruz hadn't fought in almost 4 years, was coming off multiple surgeries (arm and shoulder), and was a shell of his former self. He wasn't even a top 10 BW, let alone "BW GOAT Cruz." Which is precisely why Cejudo chose him rather than fighting a legitimate contender.

And I don't put too much stock into his 2-divsion-champ status; he beat a non-champion to win the belt and then "defended" against a washed Cruz. That Moraes win aged like milk. Max beating Gaethje at 155 is a WAY better win than Cejudo beating Moraes at 135. And he did it more impressively.

The MM win is definitely a great feather in his cap. Although I (and many other people) actually scored the fight for MM, it was still a great performance by Cejudo. I'm not sure how much stock to put into the TJ win; TJ looked like walking death trying to make 125. But he made the weight, and Cejudo besmirched him. So fair play.

Personally, I like Cejudo more than most people like him. And I actually like his cringe gimmick. He's had a great career, but context matters, young Padawan.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

Our opinions are similar but I’d argue Cormier is a harder fight than volk, at least the DC from back when Jon fought him.

I understand the challenges of volk and he’s a great fighter but DC edges him out imo.

I’d also argue fedor has big nog on his resume, which I would put on a similar level. These guys whom were around and if the #1 guy didn’t exist we’d have them in the top 5 all time.

I think that’s the difference for me. I’ll put max in that 5-10 spot when all is said and done I’m assuming, but he’ll never be in the top 5 because there are actually guys who’ve had fights like that and didn’t lose.

GSP also had the BJ penn fights

Do you see where I’m going with this? Part of the issue is exactly what you’ve said. These guys in the goat conversation DID have their volkanvskis in the picture. But they won, and they sure as heck didn’t lose 3 times.

Most of the guys in the top 5 have someone who a lot (not everyone) of people would rank as a top 25 guy all time.

DC is great and all but I don't think he's on Volk's level tbh, cardio isn't the best, Jon had a 12.5" reach advantage and DC's biggest strength is wrestling.

BJ Penn was a Lightweight for most of his career, only fight at 170 he had before GSP was Matt Hughes. GSP beat him by SD the first time, it's kind of like the Islam vs Volk situation. 155 is BJ Penn's division, 145 is Volk's.

Guess we can agree to disagree on this one because I don't think they did have their Volkanovski's, Volk is crazy good. He looked damn near unbeatable before fighting Islam.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

DC is great and all but I don't think he's on Volk's level tbh, cardio isn't the best, Jon had a 12.5" reach advantage and DC's biggest strength is wrestling.

BJ Penn was a Lightweight for most of his career, only fight at 170 he had before GSP was Matt Hughes. GSP beat him by SD the first time, it's kind of like the Islam vs Volk situation. 155 is BJ Penn's division, 145 is Volk's.

Guess we can agree to disagree on this one because I don't think they did have their Volkanovski's, Volk is crazy good. He looked damn near unbeatable before fighting Islam.

I mean, DC literally only lost to Jon jones until the stipe fights which I would argue were cash grabs at the end of his career.

The dude is about as good as it gets. You can knock his cardio but it never lost him a fight and his strength and athleticism won him way more fights. Not really sure your giving him a fair shake

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

I mean, DC literally only lost to Jon jones until the stipe fights which I would argue were cash grabs at the end of his career.

The dude is about as good as it gets. You can knock his cardio but it never lost him a fight and his strength and athleticism won him way more fights. Not really sure your giving him a fair shake

I don't like him that much to be fair but I also don't think he's as good as Volk. He was good tho, no denying that. Also Rumble was probably his best win at 205 which is nothing to shake a stick at but yeah... Idk.. I feel like Oezdemir, Patrick Cummins, 90 year old post TRT ban Hendo who he outweighed by 30lbs, Old 2 days notice Silva that he outweighed by 30lbs.. Also the Gus fight was a split decision.

Still great but 'd say he is like a level below Volk, at least for me. Volk for me is a GOAT level guy and DC is just a bit below that level for me. Having to grab a towel to make weight doesn't help his case either.

 

[Shay Brennan]

I think if he gets back the belt and beats volk we can start having these chats

Beating a past prime Volk with a compromised chin shouldn't count for much.

I do think he has a good chance of beating Topuria though.

If he can become a 2 time champ and then get 2 defenses against elite fighters in their prime, then that could make him the second best FW ever.

I have Aldo as the best FW ever due to his long reign and defenses but Volk has beaten Max, Aldo and Yair in their primes so one could argue that he's the best too.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

Beating a past prime Volk with a compromised chin shouldn't count for much.

I do think he has a good chance of beating Topuria though.

If he can become a 2 time champ and then get 2 defenses against elite fighters in their prime, then that could make him the second best FW ever.

I have Aldo as the best FW ever due to his long reign and defenses but Volk has beaten Max, Aldo and Yair in their primes so one could argue that he's the best too.

Lol 2nd best? Haha