Social Minimum Wage now at $20 an hour in California

[terrapin]

That's just lazy thinking. You can't tell people what to buy and not buy. You can't tell them to only buy things they need. You can't tell them that they need to continue to eat at a fast food restaurant if they don't want to pay the extra prices.

I never said it's the only way things can work but once you start thinking about how capitalism works, then you realize that it's kind of like the dating world. Some people are luckier than others, some work harder than others and get what they want. Some are unlucky and some are lazy and wind up with awful and unattractive spouses. There's no guarantee that you can live a happy life but you can certainly up your odds by putting in the work.

If the rules were as simple as you guys are making them out to be, everything would be fixed by now. Minimum wage hikes will never give minimum wage earners anything other than a temporary influx of a small amount of extra cash that will wind up being swallowed up by the market in short order.

No. It can and does work. You are repeating corporate propaganda. Lots and lots of people buy burgers and they can and should pay enough to support the laborers who make them... You just have a defacto FAITH in the system of exploitation. It's an anti human perspective. There is plenty for everyone if human beings are more important to you than profits or markets etc. less profit at the very top is a requirement for the lowest to have enough. Only a cruel psychopathic worldview doesn't want the least to have enough. No company should exist if it cannot provide a bare minimum to its workers.


Your worldview does require exploitation of others. It's an impoverished anti human worldview.

You got to start from first principles and first principles is every human being who works should have a basic dignity of life.

 

[jefferz]

A happy meal and a number 1 combo with an apple pie will be $66.69

You haven’t read through the thread, have you?
The In & Out price raises were posted, and you look like a fool.

 

[RoastBeast]

I think the thing what makes this so hard is you're trying to explain the sacrifice and joy of real life to people who will fight and scrap and claw to never have to experience real life at all.

I run my own (very) small business and I look back on my life working shitty jobs for other people and it's just crazy how much better life is when you take some real responsibility for you own happiness and go out and make it happen.

These people will never experience that because they just don't have that spark of life in them, so it's impossible to reason with them.

They just want to sit on a couch all day and masturbate and play video games and put in the absolute bare minimum at whatever joe job they have or (ideally) manage to qualify for some kind of government assistance so they can avoid even that.

That's why there's such a push in this younger generation to pathologize everything and why the young can't wait to list off all the shit they have wrong with them.

Their ideal is to get some kind of permanent welfare and just sit around playing xbox all day.

I get the utopian philosophy behind it but most people drop those thoughts when they're a teenager when they realize that's not how the world works. My father in law is 70 and has only worked menial jobs for about half of his life while he's been unemployed the other half. He still thinks to this day that billionaire greed is the reason why we all can't just work 2 days a week and have more money and more stuff than we already have. You can't make him realize that if people were barely working, there would be no one to make all the shit you want to buy.

Good on you for running your own business and being successful with it. I could never run my own business because I get overwhelmed with stress and anxiety but instead of just complaining about it and wanting the world to take care of me or take pity on me, I found a job where I can be task oriented and utilize my strengths to earn a much better living than I was when I was working shitty jobs. It's really not that difficult but it sure as hell isn't fun putting in the effort to find somethin better. People just don't want to deal with that uncomfortable part of life.

 

[Osculater]

You haven’t read through the thread, have you?
The In & Out price raises were posted, and you look like a fool.

My bad I should have typed in McDonald's LOL

 

[RoastBeast]

No. It can and does work. You are repeating corporate propaganda. Lots and lots of people buy burgers and they can and should pay enough to support the laborers who make them... You just have a defacto FAITH in the system of exploitation. It's an anti human perspective. There is plenty for everyone if human beings are more important to you than profits or markets etc. less profit at the very top is a requirement for the lowest to have enough. Only a cruel psychopathic worldview doesn't want the least to have enough. No company should exist if it cannot provide a bare minimum to its workers.


Your worldview does require exploitation of others. It's an impoverished anti human worldview.

You got to start from first principles and first principles is every human being who works should have a basic dignity of life.

I almost fully agree with you. I'm just telling you how the system works. All you're throwing out are utopian talking points but you aren't refuting how the market is going to react to large minimum wage increases and how the worker's output must be at the very minimum, equal to the cost of all their bills. If you flip burgers and can't net the burger joint owner enough money to pay your bills, then you're either not paying your bills or the place is going out of business because it's not profitable enough. There's no magic way to put a little in and get a lot out without being subsidized.

It's not my worldview. It's how the United States economy works. I'm not a millionaire or a billionaire but I have to live in a world controlled by them. Either get busy making yourself successful or sit around complaining that you're not. I can guarantee you that the latter will never net you a good life if you're dependent on minimum wage hikes.

 

[Lucas1980]

The US is a joke? It's easily the best country that has ever existed on this planet. I'm sorry that being successful here requires putting in a little effort, but it does. If people want to not put in effort and be cared for by the government, there's probably better countries out there for that.

It's not the responsibility of the guy who put a ton of time and effort into his career to subsidize your life because you chose to flip burgers instead of taking classes or going into the trades to make something better of yourself.

I love when muppets say the rest of the western world is laughing at us....Like we give a crap what they think about us. Hopefully they aren't one of the countries taking handouts from us or when the shit hits the fan comes to us running for help.

 

[RoastBeast]

I love when muppets say the rest of the western world is laughing at us....Like we give a crap what they think about us. Hopefully they aren't one of the countries taking handouts from us or when the shit hits the fan comes to us running for help.

Yeah and I definitely don't want to spend 8 hours a day at a place I don't want to be so my government can take a large chunk of it it and send it to other countries so they can kill each other over stupid shit.

 

[terrapin]

I almost fully agree with you. I'm just telling you how the system works. All you're throwing out are utopian talking points but you aren't refuting how the market is going to react to large minimum wage increases and how the worker's output must be at the very minimum, equal to the cost of all their bills. If you flip burgers and can't net the burger joint owner enough money to pay your bills, then you're either not paying your bills or the place is going out of business because it's not profitable enough. There's no magic way to put a little in and get a lot out without being subsidized.

It's not my worldview. It's how the United States economy works. I'm not a millionaire or a billionaire but I have to live in a world controlled by them. Either get busy making yourself successful or sit around complaining that you're not. I can guarantee you that the latter will never net you a good life if you're dependent on minimum wage hikes.

But it's not utopian that's the part you throw in that is false. Utopian would be everybody has the same amount.... We're all wealthy and everyone has every possible good that the world can bring. That is a false utopian dream.

But in a world where wealthy are getting rich off the backs of poor laborers, that's not natural... that's dystopian.

You're saying this is the way things are and I'm saying "no this is the way we have made them to be". There is a big difference between those two.. You look out on the world of exploitation.... that's not natural.... that's made up and it's made up intentionally by greedy bastards. It's not a utopian dream to say "hey, let's just set limits on what the least can make".


I remember the day when I was driving down the freeway and I realized everything around me was made up. It's not the way the world is. It's the way that we've made it and none of it has to be this way and it was such a staggering realization that I literally had to pull over because my head was swimming. I woke up that day and then I started thinking about what motivations made the world the way it is and they turned out not to be altruistic, compassionate, loving, or even deeply intellectually honest motivations. It turned out to be selfishness, greed, desire lust and all things that are sinful.

I don't believe the only way to live in this world is from a sinful selfish motivation.. I believe there's a way to live in this world from good. And I think we make a better world that is better for humans when we do that.

People arguing for a decent minimum wage are just arguing for a fraction of that good for everybody and it's not too much to ask.

 

[terrapin]

Also man I'm already successful. I live a really good life. It's not me who would get more money if we're fighting for the least among us...

 

[Lucas1980]

Yeah and I definitely don't want to spend 8 hours a day at a place I don't want to be so my government can take a large chunk of it it and send it to other countries so they can kill each other over stupid shit.

We wouldn't need these so called livable wage increases if we weren't so over taxed.....and the same people that push for these increases in wages for minimum skilled workers are the ones that want more and more social programs and government intervention in their lives which in return only increases the taxes.....laughing

 

[Gutter Chris]

I get the utopian philosophy behind it but most people drop those thoughts when they're a teenager when they realize that's not how the world works. My father in law is 70 and has only worked menial jobs for about half of his life while he's been unemployed the other half. He still thinks to this day that billionaire greed is the reason why we all can't just work 2 days a week and have more money and more stuff than we already have. You can't make him realize that if people were barely working, there would be no one to make all the shit you want to buy.

Good on you for running your own business and being successful with it. I could never run my own business because I get overwhelmed with stress and anxiety but instead of just complaining about it and wanting the world to take care of me or take pity on me, I found a job where I can be task oriented and utilize my strengths to earn a much better living than I was when I was working shitty jobs. It's really not that difficult but it sure as hell isn't fun putting in the effort to find somethin better. People just don't want to deal with that uncomfortable part of life.

Thing is things are way out of balance and capital is exploiting the hell out of labor and causing cracks in our capitalist foundations. These asshole kids screaming about Marx exist for a reason. Starting with reagan we really allowed the capitalist class to kick the shit out of the working class and at some point some fdr style governing is going to be needed to course correct. Everyone can't be rich, everyone can't run their own small business but everyone still needs to make a living so they aren't some bum on fuckin welfare.

At some point between then and now the shareholder class is going to have to take a hit or our system is going to break.

I run a restaurant, I pay my people above the minimum and I fight to retain the best of them. It's not killing me and I'm not the ceo of a mega chain. This is bullshit that these places can't pay people enough to rent a shitty apartment and if that really is the case than we deserve the big government that is going to be needed to fix the problem.

Greed Is killing our country and its not going to be funny at all when the masses who have never gotten to enjoy the perks of capitalism bring it crashing down.

And its not just McDonald's. Most people in our country aren't being paid anywhere near what they are worth. We can do better without becoming a communist shithole.

There's a lot of lazy people out there ...there's also a lot of people who are working to the best of their ability and still losing ground every day. It's absolute madness to allow mega corps to hold a gun to our countries head daily and say make rules that favor me or I'll shoot.

Capitalism is by nature exploiting and predatory.... but it's also the best system we got....it just needs regulations and balance to work and we are really lacking that.

It's not like the government does not have the power to be like pay your people better and stop finding loopholes to bill the tax payer to make up your shortcomings or we will regulate you straight out of business. These mother fuckers are not entitled to cheap labor and a bigger quarter 4 timea a year and we really need to stop behaving as if that's true.

I think a unions in every industry is actually the answer here. They are the only thing that gives labor a fighting chance when dealing with capital.

 

[avenue94]

We wouldn't need these so called livable wage increases if we weren't so over taxed.....and the same people that push for these increases in wages for minimum skilled workers are the ones that want more and more social programs and government intervention in their lives which in return only increases the taxes.....laughing

At what point in human economic history has there not been a minimum wage and labor was paid enough?

 

[Gutter Chris]

Also man I'm already successful. I live a really good life. It's not me who would get more money if we're fighting for the least among us...

Unfortunately I don't think a lot of these guys are super into Matthew

 

[Sinister]

I'm not the one that creates the rules of capitalism. You can't mandate a living wage because as soon as you up the minimum wage, the prices of everything just goes up with them. The Government can't mandate every company that offers goods and services to put a cap on their prices to accommodate minimum wage workers.

You can't just cap the greed of business owners and have them make "reasonable" profits. I'm good with what you're saying about stock buy backs and I'm also on board with closing tax loopholes as well as the government actually cracking down on monopolies and a host of other things but you can't just force business owners to cap their own profits in some arbitrary manner.

What is the rule of capitalism you're defending? That corporations can do whatever they want including not pay their employees a living wage as it correlates directly to the cost of goods and services?

The Government absolutely can do price capping. That is well within their scope of power and without that power greed only gets worse, not better.

 

[terrapin]

Unfortunately I don't think a lot of these guys are super into Matthew

The worst part about it is some of them will buy a trump bible but never actually read it

 

[the ambush]

California has to make sure all of those sandwich artists are paid well.

 

[Sinister]

California has to make sure all of those sandwich artists are paid well.

I like my sandwiches made with all of the vibrance and joy of someone who can also afford food.

 

[RoastBeast]

But it's not utopian that's the part you throw in that is false. Utopian would be everybody has the same amount.... We're all wealthy and everyone has every possible good that the world can bring. That is a false utopian dream.

But in a world where wealthy are getting rich off the backs of poor laborers, that's not natural... that's dystopian.

You're saying this is the way things are and I'm saying "no this is the way we have made them to be". There is a big difference between those two.. You look out on the world of exploitation.... that's not natural.... that's made up and it's made up intentionally by greedy bastards. It's not a utopian dream to say "hey, let's just set limits on what the least can make".


I remember the day when I was driving down the freeway and I realized everything around me was made up. It's not the way the world is. It's the way that we've made it and none of it has to be this way and it was such a staggering realization that I literally had to pull over because my head was swimming. I woke up that day and then I started thinking about what motivations made the world the way it is and they turned out not to be altruistic, compassionate, loving, or even deeply intellectually honest motivations. It turned out to be selfishness, greed, desire lust and all things that are sinful.

I don't believe the only way to live in this world is from a sinful selfish motivation.. I believe there's a way to live in this world from good. And I think we make a better world that is better for humans when we do that.

People arguing for a decent minimum wage are just arguing for a fraction of that good for everybody and it's not too much to ask.

Thing is things are way out of balance and capital is exploiting the hell out of labor and causing cracks in our capitalist foundations. These asshole kids screaming about Marx exist for a reason. Starting with reagan we really allowed the capitalist class to kick the shit out of the working class and at some point some fdr style governing is going to be needed to course correct. Everyone can't be rich, everyone can't run their own small business but everyone still needs to make a living so they aren't some bum on fuckin welfare.

At some point between then and now the shareholder class is going to have to take a hit or our system is going to break.

I run a restaurant, I pay my people above the minimum and I fight to retain the best of them. It's not killing me and I'm not the ceo of a mega chain. This is bullshit that these places can't pay people enough to rent a shitty apartment and if that really is the case than we deserve the big government that is going to be needed to fix the problem.

Greed Is killing our country and its not going to be funny at all when the masses who have never gotten to enjoy the perks of capitalism bring it crashing down.

And its not just McDonald's. Most people in our country aren't being paid anywhere near what they are worth. We can do better without becoming a communist shithole.

There's a lot of lazy people out there ...there's also a lot of people who are working to the best of their ability and still losing ground every day. It's absolute madness to allow mega corps to hold a gun to our countries head daily and say make rules that favor me or I'll shoot.

Capitalism is by nature exploiting and predatory.... but it's also the best system we got....it just needs regulations and balance to work and we are really lacking that.

It's not like the government does not have the power to be like pay your people better and stop finding loopholes to bill the tax payer to make up your shortcomings or we will regulate you straight out of business. These mother fuckers are not entitled to cheap labor and a bigger quarter 4 timea a year and we really need to stop behaving as if that's true.

I think a unions in every industry is actually the answer here. They are the only thing that gives labor a fighting chance when dealing with capital.

I don't disagree with either of you but you can't have rich people without having poor people. Every dollar you have is a dollar I can't have. You guys just aren't thinking it through. I used to be in the same boat until I started realizing that it's impossible to do what you guys are wanting to do in our current system. Even if it was improved on.

Think it through. The further you go down the road of government inflated minimum wage, government capped prices and government capped profits, the more you'll realize that this problem would have already been fixed if it was fixable. It's not fixable. Every good idea that you think you have is combated with a negative effect. Whether that's inflation, rising prices, closed businesses or work that is not worth the pay.

 

[the ambush]

I like my sandwiches made with all of the vibrance and joy of someone who can also afford food.

Not sure what to make of this statement.

 

[cheesus]

The US is a joke? It's easily the best country that has ever existed on this planet. I'm sorry that being successful here requires putting in a little effort, but it does. If people want to not put in effort and be cared for by the government, there's probably better countries out there for that.

It's not the responsibility of the guy who put a ton of time and effort into his career to subsidize your life because you chose to flip burgers instead of taking classes or going into the trades to make something better of yourself.

By what metric is the U.S easily the greatest country in the world? By nearly every measurable metric the United States is behind the majority of Western countries and sometimes even second world countries.

Only an American would say the U.S is the greatest country in the world. I live in Australia and I certainly wouldn't make that claim, despite the fact it has far better living standards than the U.S.