Muay Thai or Karate? Want to start training one of them.

[HaruHaru]

I personally have experience in Muay thai. Training in muay thai is intense, you will notice that Muay thai is similar to Kickboxing, that's because it pretty much is. The only difference is Muay thai has elbow and knee strikes and emphasizes these 2 "weapons" a lot. Muay thai incorporates deadly hands from boxing as well as devasting roundhouse kicks and teeps finally incorporating it's own elbow and knee strikes.

Muay thai is known as "the art of eight limbs"

Kyokushinkai karate would be the one you'd want to go for if you are looking to compete that's because it is full contact. Kyokunshinkai doesn't allow hand strikes to head whereas Muay thai allows strikes anywhere (excluding groin strikes I believe). Both arts allow kicks to the head in any fashion you like.

My answer for you would be to go and find good muay thai and kyokunshinkai karate gyms/dojos and see which art you prefer.

For me, as mentioned above I do muay thai at the momemt but I'd like to incorporate Kyokunshinkai into my arsenal one day.

You mentioned you are 25 years old and your ambition is to compete. The only problem here is 25 years old is a really late time for you to start training and looking to compete. I'm 17 myself and I consider that a little late. Generally I recommend for someone who has the ambition to start at age 12. And if possible start earlier with brazilian jiu jitsu and other ground martial arts.

Guys in muay thai who started fighting since they were 7 are about retiring at the age of 25, some go on to 30.

By all means train to the best of your ability but don't feel disheartened if you lose a fight or don't progress as well, this is because those guys have been toughing it out since their teens and their bodies are much used to it.

Train as much as you can but remember recovery is very important. Recovery is where you get better. Make sure you eat the right foods for maximum recovery.

Water, ice and the sauna will be your best friend in the coming days.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey =)

Welcome to the world of martial arts =)

If you have any further questions just PM me on here.

Haru

 

[Deleted member 347815]

I personally have experience in Muay thai. Training in muay thai is intense, you will notice that Muay thai is similar to Kickboxing, that's because it pretty much is. The only difference is Muay thai has elbow and knee strikes and emphasizes these 2 "weapons" a lot. Muay thai incorporates deadly hands from boxing as well as devasting roundhouse kicks and teeps finally incorporating it's own elbow and knee strikes.

Muay thai is known as "the art of eight limbs"

Kyokushinkai karate would be the one you'd want to go for if you are looking to compete that's because it is full contact. Kyokunshinkai doesn't allow hand strikes to head whereas Muay thai allows strikes anywhere (excluding groin strikes I believe). Both arts allow kicks to the head in any fashion you like.

My answer for you would be to go and find good muay thai and kyokunshinkai karate gyms/dojos and see which art you prefer.

For me, as mentioned above I do muay thai at the momemt but I'd like to incorporate Kyokunshinkai into my arsenal one day.

You mentioned you are 25 years old and your ambition is to compete. The only problem here is 25 years old is a really late time for you to start training and looking to compete. I'm 17 myself and I consider that a little late. Generally I recommend for someone who has the ambition to start at age 12. And if possible start earlier with brazilian jiu jitsu and other ground martial arts.

Guys in muay thai who started fighting since they were 7 are about retiring at the age of 25, some go on to 30.

By all means train to the best of your ability but don't feel disheartened if you lose a fight or don't progress as well, this is because those guys have been toughing it out since their teens and their bodies are much used to it.

Train as much as you can but remember recovery is very important. Recovery is where you get better. Make sure you eat the right foods for maximum recovery.

Water, ice and the sauna will be your best friend in the coming days.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey =)

Welcome to the world of martial arts =)

If you have any further questions just PM me on here.

Haru

They retire when they are 25 because they have 300+ fights.... it has nothing to do with age. If you're 25 and your body isn't beat up it is not even remotely too late to start. I see amateur fighters that are in their 40s sometimes. When I was 19 I fought a 35 year old.

Age is a number, just go and train, see if you like it and if you do and you find yourself becoming skilled your coach will let you know that you're ready.

 

[Azam]

They retire when they are 25 because they have 300+ fights.... it has nothing to do with age. If you're 25 and your body isn't beat up it is not even remotely too late to start. I see amateur fighters that are in their 40s sometimes. When I was 19 I fought a 35 year old.

Age is a number, just go and train, see if you like it and if you do and you find yourself becoming skilled your coach will let you know that you're ready.

To add to JC's point - Toshio Fujiwara started fighting professionally in his early 20's & look what he achieved - I don't think mid 20's is too late to start - depends on what your goals or objectives are, if you start in your mid 20's & train like a professional you can still achieve great thing - randy couture started fighting professionally at 34....plenty of late starters - just a matter of how determined you are.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Nothing beats MT as a complete stand up art.

Kyokushin can be a good option, but it is inferior to MT everywhere outside of Kyokushin rules.

Many people here have done shotokan and all the ryu stuff and swear that they beat MT and Kickboxing fighters. That may be and for sure there are some decent dojos out there, but IMO most of them are worthless.

Also, just look at shotokan competition footage. There are some great sequences, where you see beautiful timing and speed, but most of it, even at a high level, is so far away from useful combat.....

 

[Tom Cruise]

I'm sure there's been valuable answers from other users, but here's my take on it: whichever has more convenient locations for you, and if you can find a viable school.

Having cross-trained in muay thai and having a budo background, I value both. On one hand, karate is an extremely viable form of self-defense, as well as having competition (something you'd like to do). However, there are a lot of places that have a primary focus on things other than practical techniques, which is due to a lack of accurate exchange of information from much of karate's roots. There are good places to train, though, and I don't want to discourage you from thinking that karate isn't up to par with any other form.
Muay thai on the other hand will generally be more safe to find a place where people know what they're doing, being more focused on the combat side of fighting, as opposed to philosophical practices. However, because much of muay thai has been fixed to combat sports, you'll be missing out on a lot of street self-defense techniques, philosophy on how to properly defend yourself on the street, ect. If that's something you're looking for, that's another thing to consider.

Another thing to mention is that karate is a dedication to things other than just learning how to fight; it includes a degree of understanding Japanese culture, eastern philosophy, ect. If it's not something you're interested in, you might be seemingly wasting your time, but I find it enlightening.

I train in uechi ryu karate, and in my entire time of progressing my understanding of martial arts, I can't say that either one is better. There are counters to everything, but it's up to the individual to step outside what they've been taught and adapt their style. Studying in either karate or muay thai doesn't mean that you have to exclusively use techniques from either as you become moderately skilled. Including other techniques into your personal style modifies what you've learned, so in that respect, I don't believe that anyone can accurately say that one martial art is superior to another, or at least in most cases. These things considered, hopefully you find your answer. Price is also probably a factor. Do what looks better for your needs, and good luck.

 

[Bay Area]

I would take KK

 

[lyotoburger]

depends on which gym is better really

 

[SAAMAG]

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1559785

 

[Harukaze]

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1559785

In all fairness, knockdown karate has evolved quite a bit since that video was shot. :icon_lol:

 

[SAAMAG]

The entire thread addresses this same question...not just that video. Although there's a lot of petty my style is better than your style bickering too. More video's as well.

 

[Azam]

In all fairness, knockdown karate has evolved quite a bit since that video was shot. :icon_lol:

The karateka in that video - Tadashi Sawamura was never a knockdown karate practitioner but a sports karate fighter turned pro kickboxer - I'd also add it's pretty much widely suspected that he was a fraud & many of his bouts were fixed.


I'd actually say that knockdown karate has devolved in retrospects to actual fighting or other combat sports.

 

[Jukai]

The entire thread addresses this same question...not just that video. Although there's a lot of petty my style is better than your style bickering too. More video's as well.

edit: figured it out

 

[Harukaze]

The karateka in that video - Tadashi Sawamura was never a knockdown karate practitioner but a sports karate fighter turned pro kickboxer - I'd also add it's pretty much widely suspected that he was a fraud & many of his bouts were fixed.


I'd actually say that knockdown karate has devolved in retrospects to actual fighting or other combat sports.

Ah, good info! For some reason I always thought Sawamura was somehow related to knockdown, and yes, I'd heard the rumors that his bouts were fixed. Thanks!

As for knockdown, I'd agree when it comes to certain org's (IKO1, IKO2, etc.), but some other org's are doing quite well in terms of evolution IMHO (if you count shinkarate, Daidojuku, Zendokai, etc. as knockdown still haha; and surely you can't discount the ideals of the shinken shobu rules of Kyoushin-Kan, no matter how primitive they might be at the moment). Unless you were referring those crazy "just-bleed" Russian karateka that break out the literal meat hooks and whatnot. :icon_lol:

 

[Jukai]

Tadashi Sawamura was a high school champion, he never won (or competed, to my knowledge) in any All Japan Karate tournaments at the time. He is mistakenly referred to as one of the better Karatekas at the time, which is like comparing a local HS fencing champion to a fencing Olympian.

 

[Azam]

The entire thread addresses this same question...not just that video. Although there's a lot of petty my style is better than your style bickering too. More video's as well.

There are also plenty of videos of karateka beating nak muay - some of these guys those aren't common knowledge unless your a diehard combat sports fan or a karate freak like me lol:

Toshio Fujiwara - a great example of shorin ryu beating Muay Thai, people might argue that what he learnt was modified Muay Thai - I'd actually disagree, what he originally learnt was a blend of mainly japanese kickboxing (based on karate) & kyokushin/goju which was Kenji Kurosaki's Forte along with Judo - Kurosaki never actually studied Muay Thai extensively - it's also noteworthy to remember that most of Kurosaki's students had really great success against the Thais - Fujiwara being the most successful non Thai to ever compete IMHO - many many years before Ramon dekkers hit the scene.




Add that to the list of Terutomo Yamazaki, Yoshiji Soeno, Kozo Takeda, Peter Smit.....etc etc etc I'm not going to waste time writing a list - but suffice to say that no one art is dominant than the other - usually the guy who's more dedicated wins.


Also should it be a mystery if a nak muay or non-Thai nak muay beats a karateka at Muay Thai???? Which is what most of these videos on youtube showcase - a karateka with relatively little experience as compared to his thai counterpart trying to beat him, at a game he's been practising since he was 8....

There are very very few Muay Thai guys who compete successfully in knockdown karate or even another sport karate format - should that mean that Muay Thai is inferior since it didn't beat Karate in a karate format.....lol - This is the mentality with Muay Thai from many people but with Karate beating Muay Thai in a Muay Thai setting.

It's like saying Judo's not as good as Muay Thai in a Muay Thai fight....if you had an even playing field then for both styles it's not clear cut.

 

[Azam]

As for knockdown, I'd agree when it comes to certain org's (IKO1, IKO2, etc.), but some other org's are doing quite well in terms of evolution IMHO (if you count shinkarate, Daidojuku, Zendokai, etc. as knockdown still haha; and surely you can't discount the ideals of the shinken shobu rules of Kyoushin-Kan, no matter how primitive they might be at the moment). Unless you were referring those crazy "just-bleed" Russian karateka that break out the literal meat hooks and whatnot. :icon_lol:

I don't consider any of those knockdown since they don't compete in knockdown but have competition formats with their own rules, even though I'm not really fond of either of then except the kyokushin kan - they are going the right way although at the moment it is rather basic but with Royama around I see them growing.

Russian KK has really devolved from actual fighting - it's pretty much solely catered to knockdown karate - I can only think of Osipov as being not part of that fold - the only great Russian technical KK fighter I've seen - the rest have styles that resemble beat each other repeatedly no defence, just keep attacking until the first one pisses blood.

 

[SAAMAG]

...with relatively little experience as compared to his thai counterpart trying to beat him, at a game he's been practising since he was 8....

This brings up a good point.

You take one person who's been fighting pro since 10 and put him up against someone who's been pro since they we 20...of course the odds are going to be in favor of the one who's got more experience. Coupled with the fact that anywhere outside of Thailand you're likely not getting the same quality of training either. For example the American's general quality of clinch work vs the Thai's quality.

But I was just linking the thread because it was addressing the same issue. I already understand and proliferate the idea that in stand up fighting punches are punches and kicks are kicks. It's the TKD guys that think there's 8 different versions of spinning straight kicks! :icon_lol:

 

[Azam]

This brings up a good point.

You take one person who's been fighting pro since 10 and put him up against someone who's been pro since they we 20...of course the odds are going to be in favor of the one who's got more experience. Coupled with the fact that anywhere outside of Thailand you're likely not getting the same quality of training either. For example the American's general quality of clinch work vs the Thai's quality.

But I was just linking the thread because it was addressing the same issue. I already understand and proliferate the idea that in stand up fighting punches are punches and kicks are kicks. It's the TKD guys that think there's 8 different versions of spinning straight kicks! :icon_lol:

That's precisely the point - but I'd make the distinction that it is possible to beat someone who has much more experience & training under their belt - a great example & partly why I included him in my prior post is Toshio Fujiwara - he started fighting professionally at 21 - within 6 months of arriving at Kenji Kurosaki's dojo - he started fighting professionally at 21 ----- yet he was still able to beat nak muay with a lot more experience & training ----- obviously it's rare to find people who have this ability since not everyone can do it but it still can be done - I think it goes down to determination & how much will power you have & I think it also comes down to the quality & type of instruction you're getting - in Fujiwara's case - he had one of the greatest stand up teachers of his generation teaching him to fight aka Kenji Kurosaki - and easily one of the greatest martial arts teachers in Japan at the time who was well versed in Karate (from Gogen Yamaguchi & So Nei Chu instruction with his sempai Mas Oyama) & judo.


I think what it really boils down to is quality of instruction (like you pointed out) - & determination - a point that I think Kurosaki must have learnt also because he was well known to have a ridiculously 'harsh on your body' training curriculum & he emphasized 'not' fighting like the thais - realising you can't beat someone by fighting exactly the way they do especially if they have years over you - hence the focus on movement, punching & kicking combinations - the trademark or blueprint that the dutch used & ramon dekkers used.

Another example is Kozo Takeda - he started even later than Fujiwara - started at 23 - yet he still beat many guys with much more experience than him - there was a recent video of him at the shinkyokushin honbu with Midori - he had no flexibility & couldn't kick above chest height...

 

[Mick Dojang]

Here we have French Shidokan champion Matthias Charpentier fighting in Pro-karate.

I dont remember the opponents style, but it was a kyokushin based one.

Here we have him (briefly) fighting Makoto Uehara (another shidokan karate fighter, who has been known to fight in k-1) in the Shidokan glove karate championship.


Same guy. this time trad kyokushin rules. (and honestly, not the best fight ive seen)


One last one, just because it is a shame to only show bad fights with such a good fighter. Shidokan vs kempo. kyokushin rules.

Seems like his opponent in the first video is a kempo guy called Antony Rea. He also has a blackbelt in something called Pankido, which I'm not familiar with

Antony Rea ("Wild Thing") | MMA Fighter Page | Tapology

Antony "Wild Thing" Rea (39-15-0) is a Pro MMA Fighter out of Carcassonne, France and the #51st ranked Pro Mens Middleweight in Europe Western. View complete Tapology profile, bio, rankings, photos, news and record.

www.tapology.com

Antony

The industry pioneer in UFC, Bellator and all things MMA (aka Ultimate Fighting). MMA news, interviews, pictures, videos and more since 1997.

www.sherdog.com

He's 47 and still fighting. Guessing he's pro but he never seems to have got a shot in any of the big MMA promotions

 

[shinkyoku]

Seems like his opponent in the first video is a kempo guy called Antony Rea. He also has a blackbelt in something called Pankido, which I'm not familiar with

Antony Rea ("Wild Thing") | MMA Fighter Page | Tapology

Antony "Wild Thing" Rea (39-15-0) is a Pro MMA Fighter out of Carcassonne, France and the #51st ranked Pro Mens Middleweight in Europe Western. View complete Tapology profile, bio, rankings, photos, news and record.

www.tapology.com

Antony

The industry pioneer in UFC, Bellator and all things MMA (aka Ultimate Fighting). MMA news, interviews, pictures, videos and more since 1997.

www.sherdog.com

He's 47 and still fighting. Guessing he's pro but he never seems to have got a shot in any of the big MMA promotions

but not ed parker type kempo/kenpo (important distinction to make since most kempo in the US is from that lineage), but a style that copied its competition-form (and a lot of technique "flavour") from kyokushin.

BTW. flash from the past! I made that post 2013.