International NATO war with Russia will be unavoidable sadly

[HARRISON_3]

I mean WW3 will likely come at some point

Question is when?

Two weeks

 

[jx820]

I'm sure they would if NATO also agreed to back away.

They did. Prior to the invasion, they agreed not to add Ukraine to NATO to appease Russia.

Did we just negotiate a peace deal in Ukraine?

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

They did. Prior to the invasion, they agreed not to add Ukraine to NATO to appease Russia.

Did we just negotiate a peace deal in Ukraine?

My understanding is that there was a deal, then Boris Johnson blew in at the behest of the Biden Administration to tell Zelensky to not accept the agreement.

 

[jx820]

My understanding is that there was a deal, then Boris Johnson blew in at the behest of the Biden Administration to tell Zelensky to not accept the agreement.

Maybe. Again, an agreement isn't really necessary. If Russia leaves the war is over. They can clear out in days. They're like 100 miles from the nearest border. Ukraine isn't really mounting a counter offensive.

 

[herpd807]

Putin's war into Ukraine has really fucked up the global order.

It's a nuclear armed State invading and conquering a NON nuclear armed state.

What's the consequences of this? Nuclear proliferation. Either you join a defensive alliance with those who will use nukes in your defense, or you get your hands on nukes yourself.

So because of this, nuclear holocaust is much more likely.

 

[Andy Capp]

I think Putin's regime will collapse before such a war is likely to develop. Opposition is growing.

 

[Andy Capp]

My understanding is that there was a deal, then Boris Johnson blew in at the behest of the Biden Administration to tell Zelensky to not accept the agreement.

Yeah but considering you suggested Europe is a mono-culture we all know your understanding is that of a 9 year old who spends all his time listening to Alex Jones. There was no deal but you choose to ignore facts and settle instead on making a manure spreader out of yourself.

How about you impress us with your understanding of the text below?

https://www.thebureau.news/p/no-the-west-did-not-sabotage-an-early
"Of the many misrepresentations made by the Ottawa professor Katchanovski and other pro-Russian commentators, perhaps the most fundamental was the claim that a peace deal was close to being signed. This was not actually true.

While Russian and Ukrainian negotiators were able to agree to some basic principles, the exact details were to be decided upon later, in an in-person meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskyy (which ultimately did not happen).

In any difficult negotiation, especially with high political stakes, agreeing upon broad principles is far easier than hammering out details.

While Ukrainian officials have stated that negotiators almost settled on a general framework, positioning that as a borderline peace deal is as dishonest as claiming that you’ve built a house after simply setting its foundations.

“We listened to them, and we realized that these are not people sent for talks but for our capitulation,” a senior Ukrainian negotiator recalled, the Wall Street Journal reported."

There are good reasons to doubt that Zelensky and Putin would have settled on a compromise – mostly because the Russians were demanding that Ukraine limit its ability to defend itself by capping its armed forces at 85,000 troops, 342 tanks and 519 artillery pieces (accounting to roughly a 60-70 per cent reduction of Ukraine’s prewar military power).

...
Finally, the discovery of the Bucha massacre, wherein 450 Ukrainian civilians were found murdered in the Kyiv region, obliterated any public support for a negotiated peace. According to a May 2022 survey, 82 per cent of Ukrainians agreed that “under no circumstance should Ukraine give up on any of its territory even if it leads to the continuation of the war and threatens its independence.”

So of course Johnson said that Western allies were not ready to provide the guarantees outlined in the Istanbul framework – this was not coercion, it was simply an admission that the guarantees envisioned by the agreement were not feasible.

And of course he advised Zelenskyy to keep fighting – this was not warmongering, but rather an acceptance of the fact that, in light of Russian atrocities in Bucha, there was no other choice.

The Istanbul framework was never going to work – and yet, over a year later, pro-Russian voices are still trying to twist the narrative to suit their interests, and some people are, unfortunately, gullible enough to believe them."


Now, please do go ahead and share with us your understanding about how Johnson talked the Ukrainians into rejecting a peace deal that never existed.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Yeah but considering you suggested Europe is a mono-culture

You liar. I said unrestricted immigration and abortion would be an end to European Culture in the next 30 years. I never said Europe was a "mono-culture".

Whilst there are a great number of perspectives that can be taken on the subject, it is impossible to form a single, all-embracing concept of European culture.[2] Nonetheless, there are core elements which are generally agreed upon as forming the cultural foundation of modern Europe.[3] One list of these elements given by K. Bochmann includes:[4]

• A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, Judaism, the Renaissance, its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism;[5][4]
• A rich and dynamic material culture, parts of which have been extended to the other continents as the result of industrialization and colonialism during the "Great Divergence";[5]
• A specific conception of the individual expressed by the existence of, and respect for, a legality that guarantees human rights and the liberty of the individual;[5]
• A plurality of states with different political orders, which share new ideas with one another.[5]
• Respect for peoples, states, and nations outside Europe.[5]

How about you impress us with your understanding of the text below?

https://www.thebureau.news/p/no-the-west-did-not-sabotage-an-early
"Of the many misrepresentations made by the Ottawa professor Katchanovski and other pro-Russian commentators, perhaps the most fundamental was the claim that a peace deal was close to being signed. This was not actually true.

While Russian and Ukrainian negotiators were able to agree to some basic principles, the exact details were to be decided upon later, in an in-person meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelenskyy (which ultimately did not happen).

In any difficult negotiation, especially with high political stakes, agreeing upon broad principles is far easier than hammering out details.

While Ukrainian officials have stated that negotiators almost settled on a general framework, positioning that as a borderline peace deal is as dishonest as claiming that you’ve built a house after simply setting its foundations.

“We listened to them, and we realized that these are not people sent for talks but for our capitulation,” a senior Ukrainian negotiator recalled, the Wall Street Journal reported."

There are good reasons to doubt that Zelensky and Putin would have settled on a compromise – mostly because the Russians were demanding that Ukraine limit its ability to defend itself by capping its armed forces at 85,000 troops, 342 tanks and 519 artillery pieces (accounting to roughly a 60-70 per cent reduction of Ukraine’s prewar military power).

...
Finally, the discovery of the Bucha massacre, wherein 450 Ukrainian civilians were found murdered in the Kyiv region, obliterated any public support for a negotiated peace. According to a May 2022 survey, 82 per cent of Ukrainians agreed that “under no circumstance should Ukraine give up on any of its territory even if it leads to the continuation of the war and threatens its independence.”

So of course Johnson said that Western allies were not ready to provide the guarantees outlined in the Istanbul framework – this was not coercion, it was simply an admission that the guarantees envisioned by the agreement were not feasible.

And of course he advised Zelenskyy to keep fighting – this was not warmongering, but rather an acceptance of the fact that, in light of Russian atrocities in Bucha, there was no other choice.

The Istanbul framework was never going to work – and yet, over a year later, pro-Russian voices are still trying to twist the narrative to suit their interests, and some people are, unfortunately, gullible enough to believe them."


Now, please do go ahead and share with us your understanding about how Johnson talked the Ukrainians into rejecting a peace deal that never existed.

this a known propaganda piece full of nonfunctioning links and paywalled articles that literally doesn't say what "the bureau" claims it says.

nice try.

 

[Andy Capp]

You liar. I said unrestricted immigration would be an end to European Culture in the next 30 years. I never said Europe was a "mono-culture".

Whilst there are a great number of perspectives that can be taken on the subject, it is impossible to form a single, all-embracing concept of European culture.[2] Nonetheless, there are core elements which are generally agreed upon as forming the cultural foundation of modern Europe.[3] One list of these elements given by K. Bochmann includes:[4]

• A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, Judaism, the Renaissance, its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism;[5][4]
• A rich and dynamic material culture, parts of which have been extended to the other continents as the result of industrialization and colonialism during the "Great Divergence";[5]
• A specific conception of the individual expressed by the existence of, and respect for, a legality that guarantees human rights and the liberty of the individual;[5]
• A plurality of states with different political orders, which share new ideas with one another.[5]
• Respect for peoples, states, and nations outside Europe.[5]

this a known propaganda piece full of nonfunctioning links and paywalled articles that literally doesn't say what "the bureau" claims it says.

nice try.

lol lie while calling me a liar, wat to go.

There was no deal for Johnson to scupper was there? Yes or no?

Please regale us with your understanding, 50 Shades of Cope.

 

[Rod1]

My understanding is that there was a deal, then Boris Johnson blew in at the behest of the Biden Administration to tell Zelensky to not accept the agreement.

You understand wrong, Russia was just trying to buy time to fix its fuck ups.

 

[curryjunkie]

My understanding is that there was a deal, then Boris Johnson blew in at the behest of the Biden Administration to tell Zelensky to not accept the agreement.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

oops

According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in particular the Bucha massacre on 1 April 2022. In a surprise visit to Ukraine on 9 April, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with," and that the collective West was not willing to make a deal with Putin. Three days after Johnson left Kyiv, Putin stated publicly that talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

 

[GhostZ06]

The only way that it happens is if Russia attacks NATO. They won't do that. They've crippled themselves in Ukraine and the entire Kremlin knows it.

Russia is not suicidal.

This thread stopped about here..

 

[squeezewax]

It's unavoidable? You talk as if it's something that could take place in the future. It's already happened and is happening! Who do you think Russia has been fighting? Ukraine only???

 

[Cole train]

oops

According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in particular the Bucha massacre on 1 April 2022. In a surprise visit to Ukraine on 9 April, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with," and that the collective West was not willing to make a deal with Putin. Three days after Johnson left Kyiv, Putin stated publicly that talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

Should always come up with a link

Possibility of talks between Zelenskyy and Putin came to a halt after Johnsonâs visit - UP sources

IRYNA BALACHUK, ROMAN ROMANIUK — THURSDAY, 5 MAY 2022, 13:32

www.pravda.com.ua

Interesting case anyway if true, one we will not have real answer for a while

 

[Andy Capp]

You liar. I said unrestricted immigration and abortion would be an end to European Culture in the next 30 years. I never said Europe was a "mono-culture".

Whilst there are a great number of perspectives that can be taken on the subject, it is impossible to form a single, all-embracing concept of European culture.[2] Nonetheless, there are core elements which are generally agreed upon as forming the cultural foundation of modern Europe.[3] One list of these elements given by K. Bochmann includes:[4]

• A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, Judaism, the Renaissance, its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism;[5][4]
• A rich and dynamic material culture, parts of which have been extended to the other continents as the result of industrialization and colonialism during the "Great Divergence";[5]
• A specific conception of the individual expressed by the existence of, and respect for, a legality that guarantees human rights and the liberty of the individual;[5]
• A plurality of states with different political orders, which share new ideas with one another.[5]
• Respect for peoples, states, and nations outside Europe.[5]

this a known propaganda piece full of nonfunctioning links and paywalled articles that literally doesn't say what "the bureau" claims it says.

nice try.

Took me a bit to find the post,

One of the many reasons Europe will cease to be a culture in the next 30 years.

So... who is the liar? lol

 

[Natural Order]

Putin going to get capped from within shortly imo.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Took me a bit to find the post,

So... who is the liar? lol

Where does it say mono culture? You are embarrassing yourself.


Since also decided to ignore the evidence that proves what I was saying.

Whilst there are a great number of perspectives that can be taken on the subject, it is impossible to form a single, all-embracing concept of European culture.[2] Nonetheless, there are core elements which are generally agreed upon as forming the cultural foundation of modern Europe.[3] One list of these elements given by K. Bochmann includes:[4]

• A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, Judaism, the Renaissance, its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism;[5][4]
• A rich and dynamic material culture, parts of which have been extended to the other continents as the result of industrialization and colonialism during the "Great Divergence";[5]
• A specific conception of the individual expressed by the existence of, and respect for, a legality that guarantees human rights and the liberty of the individual;[5]
• A plurality of states with different political orders, which share new ideas with one another.[5]
• Respect for peoples, states, and nations outside Europe.[5]

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

The only way that it happens is if Russia attacks NATO. They won't do that. They've crippled themselves in Ukraine and the entire Kremlin knows it.

Russia is not suicidal.

People who claim they think Russia will attack NATO are just defending bigger defense budgets with a stupid exaggeration.
A larger budget would be useful to fight these proxy wars, to be able to give more ammo to Ukraine etc, but that isn't as popular as saying that Russia wants to march into Paris and London.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I'm sure they would if NATO also agreed to back away.

Not a chance. The only thing that worries Russia about NATO is that it can't bully and control and former satellite State that joins.