Social Queen B's Partisan COVID/Vaccine Megathread

Good point, and a further example of why such a survey is useless and nothing more than pseudoscientific marketing.

It could have just as easily read, “96% of doctors whose jobs mandate vaccination are vaccinated...”

Its all how the survey is conducted yeah? Was the first by either membership in AMA or doctors offices etc. But certainly not an open survey asking random internet peeps if they are doctors or not.. this goes for either survey. I would hope the AMA would be more solid in its methods than that...
 
Big pharmaceutical companies are spending far more on marketing than research.

“The biggest spender, Johnson & Johnson, shelled out $17.5 billion on sales and marketing in 2013, compared with $8.2 billion for R&D. ”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/

I did cancer research for 14 years and 7.5 was at Merck. Whatever they do make they have got to sell. I can certainly see it. Most of the drugs you work on fail even after millions in development. So what you do have better sell.
When I was at Merck, I was at a satellite site in Boston. We had around 100M budget per year and in the 7 years I was there we never developed a single drug that went to market. Not saying big pharma arent run by greedy peeps trying to make a buck.. I obviously never interacted with those people. But we had some brilliant peeps working hard and developed nada...at least when I was there.
 
Its all how the survey is conducted yeah? Was the first by either membership in AMA or doctors offices etc. But certainly not an open survey asking random internet peeps if they are doctors or not.. this goes for either survey. I would hope the AMA would be more solid in its methods than that...
Both surveys have significant limitations, but only the AMA survey is being used to promote it’s false conclusions to millions (billions!) of people.
 
Both surveys have significant limitations, but only the AMA survey is being used to promote it’s false conclusions to millions (billions!) of people.

Thanks. Will have a look. Overall I think most doctors are getting the vaccine. And any I've talked to so far including all my PhD buddies back at merck. I also have received it myself. While I do think the companies in question will make a killing globally as this continues, I am not one to think the entire medical community has a conspiracy to protect them.
 
Who said anything about blacks and Hispanics? Dumbass.

Couple covid facts for ya:

Black and Hispanic are 2.8 times more at risk of hospitalization than whites.

Black are 2.0 times more at risk of death.

Hispanic are 2.3 times more at risk of death.

Now think about that "savage" meme and see if you can figure out what doesn't make sense about it?

And more importantly, where did the misinformation that led you to believe otherwise come from?
 
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Also, there are researchers and doctors in other countries as well. As we are approaching 4 billion vaccinated world wide and doctors given priority, the outcry should be greater imo over fake or harmful vaccines. I have said this to others over conspiracies in the past. The US isn't the only country with research and brilliant medical minds. People used to tell me that pharma had a cure for cancer but won't release it in order to make more long term money. For that to be true and not get out, you would literally have to be paying off researchers and clinicians globally as well as startup companies. The scale of such a conspiracy would be unmanageable.
 
Any comments about the thread topic?

Yes, both surveys are limited but the one you linked by the dubious AAPS has far greater issues. The AAPS has "less than 5000" members, whatever that is supposed to mean according to Jane Orient (Director) and it looks like it was an anonymous internet form/PDF that they filled out while the AMA used their Physician panel. Not sure why you think these 2 surveys would be equivalent.
 
Thanks. Will have a look. Overall I think most doctors are getting the vaccine. And any I've talked to so far including all my PhD buddies back at merck. I also have received it myself. While I do think the companies in question will make a killing globally as this continues, I am not one to think the entire medical community has a conspiracy to protect them.

Did you see the link I posted earlier concerning @PhitePhan's survey source? Along with the anonymous PDF survey they filled out it all seems really off to say the least.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is a small group of physicians who, under a false authoritative name, advocate for far-right conservative values in the practice of medicine. While purporting to have high regard for the Hippocratic Oath, "the sanctity of the patient-physician relationship, and the "practice of private medicine",[1] it appears to treat these concepts as terms of art. Despite also calling itself "non-partisan", its main focus appears to be opposing abortion, vaccination, universal health care coverage and Obamacare in particular, and birth control.

These concerns evidence a particular contempt for women's health and wellness. The AAPS specifically opposes vaccination for HPV,[2] a known cancer-causing virus for which a vaccine administered to young women is extremely effective. The group also makes the objectively false claim that there is a meaningful correlation between abortion and breast cancer.[3]


They believe Obama was a hypnotist?

https://aapsonline.org/oratory-or-hypnotic-induction/

And a link between abortions and breast cancer?

https://www.aapsonline.org/press/abortioncancer.htm
 
Both surveys have significant limitations, but only the AMA survey is being used to promote it’s false conclusions to millions (billions!) of people.
The AMA survey, while certainly far from perfect or even great, is far less biased than the AAPS survey is. Do you even know who the AAPS are and have to compared the methodology? Since you brought up confidence intervals and such, risk of bias is the foundation. Start with selection bias and inclusion criteria. AAPS, while pretending to be a legit national organisation through what seems like deliberate manipulation in the way they market themselves, consists of a few thousands members who are hardcore right-wing private physicians. It's highly dishonest. The AMA at least have more than 200.000 members nationally and is a legit organisation.

Think for a second, do you believe the national rate of medical doctors getting vaccinated is closer to 40% rather than 90%?
 
Yes, both surveys are limited but the one you linked by the dubious AAPS has far greater issues. The AAPS has "less than 5000" members, whatever that is supposed to mean according to Jane Orient (Director) and it looks like it was an anonymous internet form/PDF that they filled out while the AMA used their Physician panel. Not sure why you think these 2 surveys would be equivalent.

Who said they were equivalent?

I guess you don’t want to discuss the thread that I started, and prefer to latch on to an strawman argument that I never made?

Can’t say I’m too surprised...

<Fedor23>
 
The AMA survey, while certainly far from perfect or even great, is far less biased than the AAPS survey is. Do you even know who the AAPS are and have to compared the methodology? Since you brought up confidence intervals and such, risk of bias is the foundation. Start with selection bias and inclusion criteria. AAPS, while pretending to be a legit national organisation through what seems like deliberate manipulation in the way they market themselves, consists of a few thousands members who are hardcore right-wing private physicians. It's highly dishonest. The AMA at least have more than 200.000 members nationally and is a legit organisation.

Think for a second, do you believe the national rate of medical doctors getting vaccinated is closer to 40% rather than 90%?
The AAPS survey was not a part of my original thread, and I included their survey in another posters response, simply as an example of why we can’t use these surveys to promote consensus. Sure, the AMA survey may be “better”... but it is still very flawed, agree?

Do you think the statement that “96% of physicians are vaccinated,” as is being promoted across the MSM, based on the AMA survey, is accurate and truthful?
 
Who said they were equivalent?

I guess you don’t want to discuss the thread that I started, and prefer to latch on to an strawman argument that I never made?

Can’t say I’m too surprised...

<Fedor23>

You stating "Both surveys have significant limitations" but not mentioning that the AAPS is a fringe organization with far less members and used an anonymous internet PDF form to collect their data is certainly suggesting that. Why wouldn't you mention all of that in your post?
 
The AAPS survey was not a part of my original thread, and I included their survey in another posters response, simply as an example of why we can’t use these surveys to promote consensus. Sure, the AMA survey may be “better”... but it is still very flawed, agree?

Do you think the statement that “96% of physicians are vaccinated,” as is being promoted across the MSM, based on the AMA survey, is accurate and truthful?
I haven't read the methodology of the survey so I can't attest to whether or not it's very flawed. It all depends on how they went about the sampling. Ultimately I have good faith in that the AMA knows how to conduct them well.

I don't follow the US MSM so I haven't seen that those headlines, but by searching on google I found headlines from Healthline and such with "Study finds that" and "Survey finds that", which I would consider pretty accurate framing. I don't agree that surveys can't tell us anything about the consensus, similar to polls, it depends on how they are conducted. Well put together surveys are usually pretty accurate. However I definitely grant the point that it's possible to manipulate the data through surveys with bad methodology, which the AASP is a great example of. The real issue is that the media often do not know how to value the methodology, and without a science or statistics degree, the average person don't either. We should be able to trust the media to do this accurately, but that is often not the case. That's why you should go to sources who have a history of doing this well and look it through yourself, if that seems feasible.

If it's alright, would you mind answering my earlier question?
 
You stating "Both surveys have significant limitations" but not mentioning that the AAPS is a fringe organization with far less members and used an anonymous internet PDF form to collect their data is certainly suggesting that. Why wouldn't you mention all of that in your post?
Why didn’t I mention every detail you want me to in my one off post to another poster?

Seriously?

What are you getting at? I’m not promoting the AAPS survey (actually the opposite) and I didn’t start a thread about comparing and contrasting the two shitty studies. If you’d like to, maybe start a thread about that...

Again, what are your thoughts about the AMA survey being used to promote unsupported conclusions?
 
I don't follow the US MSM so I haven't seen that those headlines, but by searching on google I found headlines from Healthline and such with "Study finds that" and "Survey finds that", which I would consider pretty accurate framing.

Like this headline from Healthline?

Study Finds 96% of Physicians Are Vaccinated for COVID-19
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-96-of-physicians-are-vaccinated-for-covid-19

This is EXACTLY the type of misleading title I’m taking about... this is “accurate” to you?

I don't agree that surveys can't tell us anything about the consensus, similar to polls, it depends on how they are conducted.

So you’ve spent time looking at the AAPS study apparently, what are your thoughts about the AMA study that my thread was all about?
Do you think it supports the Healthline article above?


If it's alright, would you mind answering my earlier question?
I would expect more medical doctors to be vaccinated than not.[/QUOTE]
 
Like this headline from Healthline?

Study Finds 96% of Physicians Are Vaccinated for COVID-19
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-96-of-physicians-are-vaccinated-for-covid-19

This is EXACTLY the type of misleading title I’m taking about... this is “accurate” to you?



So you’ve spent time looking at the AAPS study apparently, what are your thoughts about the AMA study that my thread was all about?
Do you think it supports the Healthline article above?



I would expect more medical doctors to be vaccinated than not.
I'd say the title is somewhat accurate yes, but "survey" would have been better as while a survey technically is a study, it can lead people to believe that a study have to be more encompassing. "Survey finds that 96% may already have been vaccinated" would have been much better considering how people will interpret it.

The AMA surveyed 301 respondents. There are about 1.000.000 physicians in the US. 96% of the respondents answered that they had been vaccinated. Based on that sample size, percentage and population, that would mean the 95% confidence interval would be roughly 93-99%. Meaning that, there's a 95% chance that the true mean of the population is within that number. That's pretty robust. HOWEVER, what's way more important in a survey is the inclusion criteria and other risks of bias. I couldn't find much about the methodology in the report, but I did find that survey respondents were gathered through WebMD. So, we know they surveyed actual physicians and we might assume that any physician nationally had access. We would have to know their affiliations to assess any political bias, which we don't, however we can see that they had physicians from all regions of the US participate. As well as other demographic factors which were somewhat well distributed. One thing though is that, we don't know if being un-vaccinated as a physician would, which does bring some stigma with it, would prevent them from wanting to participate. Then again, it was most likely anonymous. You can look at the report here:
https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf

So based on that cursory glance, it seems like a somewhat decent survey. You'd have to dig a lot deeper to know exactly how representative it is, but it doesn't strike me as inherently flawed. I do agree that the most accurate framing would be "survey has found that" and then follow up with how many was asked and how. And you do have a good point about questioning these things and you seem like a smart dude who actually looks into things. With that, it wouldn't surprise me if more than 90% of physicians in the US have been vaccinated give that ~76%, and growing, of the general population have had their first jab and 50% have already been fully vaccinated. Outside of being a social norm and them definitely not wanting to infect their patients, physicians have a huge responsibility, they generally follow the science and they were offered the vaccine before anyone else. As the Healthline article points out:

"When the vaccines were first introduced, they were available to healthcare workers first, so that group had more time to get them in recent months.

“In addition, most physicians have easy access to either vaccine centers or large health systems that were utilized as vaccine sites early on. Lastly, most physicians make decisions based on data and belief or trust in science,” she said.

All in all it seems pretty reasonable to me, without deep diving.
 
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Couple covid facts for ya:

Black and Hispanic are 2.8 times more at risk of hospitalization than whites.

Black are 2.0 times more at risk of death.

Hispanic are 2.3 times more at risk of death.

Now think about that "savage" meme and see if you can figure out what doesn't make sense about it?

And more importantly, where did the misinformation that led you to believe otherwise come from?
My comment had nothing to do with race, dumbass. Stop bringing race into everything.
 
Also, there are researchers and doctors in other countries as well. As we are approaching 4 billion vaccinated world wide and doctors given priority, the outcry should be greater imo over fake or harmful vaccines. I have said this to others over conspiracies in the past. The US isn't the only country with research and brilliant medical minds. People used to tell me that pharma had a cure for cancer but won't release it in order to make more long term money. For that to be true and not get out, you would literally have to be paying off researchers and clinicians globally as well as startup companies. The scale of such a conspiracy would be unmanageable.

truth. People who believe a lot of conspiracy theories have clearly never been in middle or upper management. Getting 6-12 people to do, say, act, etc the way you instruct them is damn near impossible.
 
Why didn’t I mention every detail you want me to in my one off post to another poster?

Seriously?

What are you getting at? I’m not promoting the AAPS survey (actually the opposite) and I didn’t start a thread about comparing and contrasting the two shitty studies. If you’d like to, maybe start a thread about that...

Again, what are your thoughts about the AMA survey being used to promote unsupported conclusions?

Why did you not mention the important and pertinent details like the AAPS being a fringe group with a small number of members using an anonymous internet PDF form. The reason I'm leaning to is that you didn't even know what the AAPS was, it just sounded official to you, you didn't look into their history and methodology and now when called on it you're panic wrestling.

As for the AMA survey, google says there are around 1 Mil Physicians in the US. Let's plug that into the sample size calculator below; they used 301 which its about 92%-93% confidence level... thats good enough for me.

https://www.qualtrics.com/experience-management/research/determine-sample-size/


Sample-Size.jpg
 
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