Reality With The Knife

[tattoo13x13]

If you think you have a defense worked out against a knife wielding attacker, simply try this give the attacker in a scenario a sharpie and have him come at you.
I have tried this again and again and every time the defender ends up with what would of been life threatening injuries.
Even if they disarmed/defeated the attacker they would of most likely been in the ICU or the Morgue shortly after.

 

[c-ing_red]

All this talk about this and that....

All you have to do is look at how different BJJ is from Judo - and how different BJJ is from Japanese JJ.

MMA as a sport is just that - a sport. All the aspects of the fight that are questionable (but effective) have been taken out.

If you are good - be fancy. Grapple, clinch, etc. Then see how much you are bleeding. Or how DEAD you are.

If you want to get the F outta there - kick the nuts. Strike the eyes. Kick the knees. Disable the person. Once the guy is not coming at you anymore, you are golden.

Think this doesn't work? Put a magic marker in someones hand, and put on a white T-shirt. Go to town. Tell me how it goes.

 

[Hit-N-Run]

This is an MMA forum,

you guys believe that MMA has shown the truth when it comes to hand to hand combat.

As far as stick fighting, if you look at the dogbrothers, they are the number 1 in
reality stick fighting bar none imo.

and what they do looks like MMA + sticks.

In knife fighting let me ask you, why would it be any different?

MMA + knives

instead we see completely different styles being trained for the knife.

If you don't see the arm controls used in MMA then it's not going to work.
If you don't see clinching or grappling then it's not realistic.

On youtube you can see tons of video footage of officers, inmates, in knife situations,
and you will see sloppy clinching and grappling if not the defender just gets stabbed to death.

FMA = information, like a library it is knowledge that is unapplied.

JJJ = information, like a library it is knowledge that is unapplied.

BJJ & Judo = a specific part of the knowledge applied.

This is about the stupidest thing I've read in a long time. Let me explain. You see the knife has this thing called an edge. The edge slices into your flesh causing wounds and even death.

Rub a stick against you skin = no injury
Rub the edge of a knife against your skin = injury

The only "grappling" you should be doing with a knife is controlling the knife hand, not trying to pull guard.

 

[VampireMonk]

this is the same kind of criticism the dogbrothers first went through
when training full contact with the sticks.

the whole marker thing doesn't disprove anything.
you get a marker now go fight crocop or fedor with it.
I guarantee you will be KTFO.

I'm not saying I came up with some miracle style so pay attention
to this next part.

When you see a person come out with good success in a knife fight,
the clinch and grappling is usually involved.

therefore what I'm saying is MMA skills will help a person in that
scenario.

well this is new stuff, you have never seen it before so
don't be too quick to judge about something you don't know.

 

[tattoo13x13]

Sorry to defy your mystism of new stuff no one has seen before.
If you lived anywhere close I would gladly meet up with you and play the marker game.
You say go up against CC or Fedor?
Um first you are saying with your "ideas" people would be the equal of them?!?!
Second I would say the same thing, if someone who has even a basic idea how to use a knife were to go after them they would get cut, the offender may get KTFO but they would still have some serious wounds.
Play all the games you want lie to yourself, and try and be the secretive mystic, you vs knife weilder equals you in hospital or VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY LUCKY.
Did I use enough verys?

 

[Halls]

this is the same kind of criticism the dogbrothers first went through
when training full contact with the sticks.

the whole marker thing doesn't disprove anything.
you get a marker now go fight crocop or fedor with it.
I guarantee you will be KTFO.

I'm not saying I came up with some miracle style so pay attention
to this next part.

When you see a person come out with good success in a knife fight,
the clinch and grappling is usually involved.

therefore what I'm saying is MMA skills will help a person in that
scenario.

well this is new stuff, you have never seen it before so
don't be too quick to judge about something you don't know.

Get your facts straight.

The dog brothers got criticism from outside of the filipino martial arts not from within. Filipinos had full contact stick fighting matches up until the 1940's and I'm sure still going on in some locations in the Philipines. Also the dog brothers do full contact some of the time not all the time. In most training lameco padded sticks and lameco armour is used.

Is Crocop going to knock me out after I slash his jabs a couple times? I don't think so. After getting cut even Fedor will not be so apt to be on the offensive. Defanging the snake, ever hear about it?

On to your next statement, who is inducing the clinch and grappling the attacker or victim? Last time I checked the victim would try to make space after getting cut once and the attacker would want room so their knife's progress wasn't impeded or grabbed.

Do the world a favor stop teaching your hybrid garbage Korean Arnis, stop teaching knife defense, stop telling yourself and foolish students that MMA will work in a knife fight, shut down your Mcdojo, go back to the other forum where you talk about how hot trannies are, and consider suicide.

 

[Flexwave2003]

Haha from what ive read in this thread some of you guys are crazy.

The reality of a knife slinging opponent is this............You're at a huge disadvantage if your opponent has a knife. And 95% of the time even a highly skilled martial artist trained in knife defense will get stabbed in a real life scenario. The reality and truth is, your best bet is to run or pick up an object bigger then the knife such as a chair, a stick, etc. if you cant talk your way out of it. I recommend getting out of the area immediately. If thats not possible look for a weapon like a stick. If thats not an option, then use your martial arts skills as a last resort. And you're in deep water then.

Thats the reality of the knife as far as im concerned when it comes to opponents with a knife of some kind. Just get out of there folks.

 

[VampireMonk]

Do the world a favor stop teaching your hybrid garbage Korean Arnis, stop teaching knife defense, stop telling yourself and foolish students that MMA will work in a knife fight, shut down your Mcdojo, go back to the other forum where you talk about how hot trannies are, and consider suicide.

I'm sure any martial artist would be proud to be affiliated with you. nice! very classy!
not to mention open minded.

 

[peregrine]

Clinches happen in a knife fight a lot, more so with people who do not respect the blade or someone overly trained in mma without weapons training.

Vampiremonk may have some good ideas, he seems to realize if you do end up in a clnch you will get cut, likely thrusted, but by attempting to minimize those cuts and return the knife to sender you will have an advantage over the guy who ends up clinching the knifer then has every organ perforated by the knife 3-5times.

Part of my answer to this which Guru Burton Richardson(formerly Lucky dog) uses if all else fails is the 2on1 to control the weapon hand, the crazy monkey guys of Straightblast gym, as does MarcDenny-Crafty Dog in his Die Less often, use a similar idea as do other persons that i can't recall off hand. This to me is the most straight foward answer empty handed that will work under less than ideal situations. Yes you will likely be cut, face it, you may die, but you Will die if you choose the wrong strategies so choose ones with higher percentages.

fyi the DogBrothers were scrtuinized by many including a lot of people in fma as well as outside as they were 'bastardizing' it and didn't show the 'skill' just going out there and the caveman wins. Which we all know now is bs. There is skill, but the untrained fighting eye in general cannot see the transfer of the movements into the fight. Those that fight it and not just do the drills can pick the pieces out.

At the last gathering there was the choice of fighting knife with electrical shock knives, many fights still ended in the clinch with both fighters clearly taking mortal wounds. These are knife fights with guys who are supposedly trained to use a knife. Some fights went to the ground with guys tring to play position while they are getting shanked in the lung and neck. etc. etc.

So the clinch does occur, the electrical shock can also be more painful than what a real cut or thrust is which is often why many knife victims do not know a knife was involved till after they are cut.

In all respect the knife, it is vicous... and for combat or for life. It can protect or destroy. Try to train as realistically as possible, if you spar and eat a mortal wound understand that you may or may not be able to continue in reality, then learn why you were hit. then train and train some more. Video as well to document and check for flaws. Spar as many people as possible, understand that on any given day you may be off and with a blade a 1% mistake can be all that's needed. I suggest training some Amok as well. With respect i cannot see you reinventing the wheel, but learn and train as much as you can.

Never quit.

 

[VampireMonk]

Peregrine,

thanx for the respectful and intelligent response.
from now on I will only respond to posts like this so that I don't
waste my and your time.

obviously you don't have to agree with anything I say,
it's the manner in which you say it.

I only propose an idea to help you in your path.

 

[Halls]

Peregrine,

thanx for the respectful and intelligent response.
from now on I will only respond to posts like this so that I don't
waste my and your time.

obviously you don't have to agree with anything I say,
it's the manner in which you say it.

I only propose an idea to help you in your path.

You are only proposing foolish ideas to unsuspecting students in the name of open mindedness.

 

[Halls]

Clinches happen in a knife fight a lot, more so with people who do not respect the blade or someone overly trained in mma without weapons training.

Vampiremonk may have some good ideas, he seems to realize if you do end up in a clnch you will get cut, likely thrusted, but by attempting to minimize those cuts and return the knife to sender you will have an advantage over the guy who ends up clinching the knifer then has every organ perforated by the knife 3-5times.

Part of my answer to this which Guru Burton Richardson(formerly Lucky dog) uses if all else fails is the 2on1 to control the weapon hand, the crazy monkey guys of Straightblast gym, as does MarcDenny-Crafty Dog in his Die Less often, use a similar idea as do other persons that i can't recall off hand. This to me is the most straight foward answer empty handed that will work under less than ideal situations. Yes you will likely be cut, face it, you may die, but you Will die if you choose the wrong strategies so choose ones with higher percentages.

fyi the DogBrothers were scrtuinized by many including a lot of people in fma as well as outside as they were 'bastardizing' it and didn't show the 'skill' just going out there and the caveman wins. Which we all know now is bs. There is skill, but the untrained fighting eye in general cannot see the transfer of the movements into the fight. Those that fight it and notjust do the drills can pick the pieces out.

At the last gathering there was the choice of fighting knife with electrical shock knives, many fights still ended in the clinch with both fighters clearly taking mortal wounds. These are knife fights with guys who are supposedly trained to use a knife. Some fights went to the ground with guys tring to play position while they are getting shanked in the lung and neck. etc. etc.

So the clinch does occur, the electrical shock can also be more painful than what a real cut or thrust is which is often why many knife victims do not know a knife was involved till after they are cut.

In all respect the knife, it is vicous... and for combat or for life. It can protect or destroy. Try to train as realistically as possible, if you spar and eat a mortal wound understand that you may or may not be able to continue in reality, then learn why you were hit. then train and train some more. Video as well to document and check for flaws. Spar as many people as possible, understand that on any given day you may be off and with a blade a 1% mistake can be all that's needed. I suggest training some Amok as well. With respect i cannot see you reinventing the wheel, but learn and train as much as you can.

Never quit.

You have to use 2 on 1 control before the attacker enters into corto (clinch) range.

FYI- The Dog Brothers began their full contact sparring in the Inosanto Academy after Kali classes finished in the evening. So I think Guro Dan was cool with it. Leo Giron, Vallibreo, Cabales, Illustrisimo, and Sulite all fought full contact back in their youth and all condoned the work of the Dog Brothers. Cabales, and Sulite both thought WEKAF was a joke and wanted nothing to do with it. WEKAF is bastardizing the FMA's not full contact sparring.

You say that people inside the fma's thought it was being bastardized with cavemans and they couldn't pick out the skill involved? People involved in the FMA's would be able to see the footwork and strikes better than any outsider so why would they think it showed no skill?
As I said before outsiders to the art shunned full contact sparring, not practitioners.

Did you ever knife spar? You get slashed and thrusted the whole time. There is no disarms, pekiti hand defense, just go out there and get cut. You think that a shock knife represents a real knife? That shock knife hurts like a bitch I tried disarming it immediately after getting slashed 4 or 5 times. Why did I try to enter and disarm? Because it's a fake knife. If you think an electric shock hurts worse than a stab wound you are sadly mistaken.

The only part of your post I absolutely agree on is having respect for the knife. And the only reason why I continue to comment in this thread is because I don't believe that VampireMonk has any respect for the knife. If he had any real training in the FMA's he wouldn't encourage students to use their natural response and MMA training to defending a knife attack. MMA and natural responses to knife attacks don't work.

 

[peregrine]

You have to use 2 on 1 control before the attacker enters into corto (clinch) range.

FYI- The Dog Brothers began their full contact sparring in the Inosanto Academy after Kali classes finished in the evening. So I think Guro Dan was cool with it. Leo Giron, Vallibreo, Cabales, Illustrisimo, and Sulite all fought full contact back in their youth and all condoned the work of the Dog Brothers. Cabales, and Sulite both thought WEKAF was a joke and wanted nothing to do with it. WEKAF is bastardizing the FMA's not full contact sparring.

You say that people inside the fma's thought it was being bastardized with cavemans and they couldn't pick out the skill involved? People involved in the FMA's would be able to see the footwork and strikes better than any outsider so why would they think it showed no skill?
As I said before outsiders to the art shunned full contact sparring, not practitioners.

Did you ever knife spar? You get slashed and thrusted the whole time. There is no disarms, pekiti hand defense, just go out there and get cut. You think that a shock knife represents a real knife? That shock knife hurts like a bitch I tried disarming it immediately after getting slashed 4 or 5 times. Why did I try to enter and disarm? Because it's a fake knife. If you think an electric shock hurts worse than a stab wound you are sadly mistaken.

The only part of your post I absolutely agree on is having respect for the knife. And the only reason why I continue to comment in this thread is because I don't believe that VampireMonk has any respect for the knife. If he had any real training in the FMA's he wouldn't encourage students to use their natural response and MMA training to defending a knife attack. MMA and natural responses to knife attacks don't work.

I deleted my refutes.

 

[peregrine]

have a nice day.

 

[VampireMonk]

it's happening
it's inevitable

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4390904988613454229&q=stab+knife+defense&total=68&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Karl Tanswell is affiliated with Straight Blast Gym. His STAB program is based off Greco-Roman wrestling and approached Knife attacks from a very realistic view. (He was stabbed 7 times)

from Jeet Kune Joe

 

[Kung Fu Devotee]

Grapple with a guy holding a knife...it doesnt work..

It's not that armbars and takedowns won't work on an armed opponent..it's that they aren't practical....

it's all about control..there is no amazing way out of a knife fight..someone will get cut, you need to minimize damage....this means take the strike on a non-vital surface..and control the weapon afterwards.....

we learned..block with forearms...control the wrist, strike with knees, while twisting the attacker to the ground...

we also learned the probability of bloodshed if a knife is used in an attack is upwards of 90%.

no double leg takedowns, no pulling guard, no pretty 1-2 combos...just wait for the strike and counter it...

WTF?!? Any time steel meets skin bro you lose-even if it is on your forearm. Have you ever cut yourself with a knife accidently? Imagine now the pain you will feel when I slash your forearm-do you really think you will be able to complete your moves when I am stabbing you? Stupid shit bro...

 

[younggunz]

this is the same kind of criticism the dogbrothers first went through
when training full contact with the sticks.

the whole marker thing doesn't disprove anything.
you get a marker now go fight crocop or fedor with it.
I guarantee you will be KTFO.

I'm not saying I came up with some miracle style so pay attention
to this next part.

When you see a person come out with good success in a knife fight,
the clinch and grappling is usually involved.

therefore what I'm saying is MMA skills will help a person in that
scenario.

well this is new stuff, you have never seen it before so
don't be too quick to judge about something you don't know.

this is far from new...
USACS teaches a version of this...however it is more realistic--because it has to be..

 

[KenWatanabe**]

This is an MMA forum,

you guys believe that MMA has shown the truth when it comes to hand to hand combat.

As far as stick fighting, if you look at the dogbrothers, they are the number 1 in
reality stick fighting bar none imo.

and what they do looks like MMA + sticks.

In knife fighting let me ask you, why would it be any different?

MMA + knives

instead we see completely different styles being trained for the knife.

If you don't see the arm controls used in MMA then it's not going to work.
If you don't see clinching or grappling then it's not realistic.

On youtube you can see tons of video footage of officers, inmates, in knife situations,
and you will see sloppy clinching and grappling if not the defender just gets stabbed to death.

FMA = information, like a library it is knowledge that is unapplied.

And you wanna grapple vs a knife?

WTF?

Sure. Go right ahead. Let the guy as you're taclking him or double leg take-downing him stab you in the kidney, liver, neck, back, thigh, hand, head, ear, mouth, arm, etc while you're looking good with your olympic level grappling.

JJJ = information, like a library it is knowledge that is unapplied.

BJJ & Judo = a specific part of the knowledge applied.

I'm a Krav instructor and was taught that the reality of the knife is, that if you don't redirect and counter attack to eliminate the knife being a factor???

YOURE DEAD.

redirect, counterstrike the fuck at the same time as controlling the knife hand until the attacker is A)beat to shit by you and B) the knife is either dislodged by your counter attack or the attacker is put down by you.

The problem with MOST traditional defenses to the knife is that they teach Dis-arm first.

How the hell can you disarm first without attacking back?

You focus too much on disarming first and you're gonna get stabbed and killed BIG.

Redirect, counter until the knife is no l onger a factor or the attacker is no longer a factor

THEN

Disarm if necessary

 

[VampireMonk]

this is far from new...

your right, truth has always been available to anyone since the dawn of time.

 

[VampireMonk]

redirect, counterstrike the fuck at the same time as controlling the knife hand until the attacker is A)beat to shit by you and B) the knife is either dislodged by your counter attack or the attacker is put down by you.

I like how you say attack the attacker and leave disarm for last.

I reached a similar concept but by applying BJJ concepts.
I see the disarm like the submission.

without position, posture, good base and control,
it's gonna be super hard to pull off.

in other words defend the immediate threat first
no matter what it takes, head butts, knees, elbows, whatever.
:icon_twis