Roll not to lose...

[finalboss]

I've developed two mindsets when I'm rolling with my teammates. When I roll with fellow white belts, I try to submit them as much as possible.

But when I roll with the higher belts, I continually find myself getting smashed and subbed constantly. So I developed another mindset with rolling with higher belts: survive, roll not to lose. I found myself getting submitted less and surviving more. But is this a good mentality to have?

 

[RJ Green]

roll to learn.

 

[Poochie]

Words to train by from Babs Olusanmokun

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

Survival is an important lesson to learn. Survival gives you the time you need to then escape bad positions. Being able to escape allows you to move to the offensive rather than the defensive. One leads to another.

Then, when you are comfortable surviving and escaping, you will feel more comfortable going for new things because there will be less fear of being smashed for the entire round if you miss the effort.

 

[Your Noodly Master]

I've developed two mindsets when I'm rolling with my teammates. When I roll with fellow white belts, I try to submit them as much as possible.

But when I roll with the higher belts, I continually find myself getting smashed and subbed constantly. So I developed another mindset with rolling with higher belts: survive, roll not to lose. I found myself getting submitted less and surviving more. But is this a good mentality to have?

That's the way I did it and it worked great for me. Your first year vs higher belts is all about surviving. As you improve your survival leads to better things. Survive, but with the intent of escaping so you learn what works and what doesn't.

 

[DatCutman]

I'm going to disagree with the majority opinion I guess, but it also sort of depends on what you mean. If the strategy of "not losing" means you're just turtling up, all you're accomplishing is learning how to lose slower.

You aren't getting submitted at this stage because you're taking high risks that don't pay off, but because you're doing stupid things, ala pushing up on the chest from bottom mount, leaving your elbows wide open away from your ribs like you're doing the chicken dance, not protecting your neck, not knowing when your guard is passed, waiting too long to start the escape from bottom, leaving too much space on top, etc. As a white belt, you're going to do stupid things, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be a white belt.

Focusing on not doing stupid things is a better game plan than not focusing on not losing. Trying to work the escapes/reversals/reguarding/whatever, i.e., doing whatever you should be doing from the position you're in, gives you valuable data that will aid your progress down the road, until you've had the stupid beaten out of you (which is unavoidable, everyone gets beaten like a bongo drum by upper belts when they first start). Therefore, work the techniques you should be working at any given moment. It's great to learn to keep your elbows in, yea. But if you can't keep your elbows in white doing the escape, then it doesn't really matter, because you're never going to go anywhere, you know? And if doing the techniques correctly is "playing not to lose," then I guess we're in agreement then?

For example, bottom side control. You can either cinch up, and just lay there for the rest of the round, and see how long you can survive (limited, if any, purpose or growth). Try to fight off subs as they come. Never try to escape. Depending on how nice they are, they just start attacking. If they're mean, you get a shoulder of justice until you're forced to do something. You pose no threat of escape, so the top guy can just go HAM on attacks. As a defender, you have to defend 100% of attacks to not lose; an attacker only needs 1 successful attack to win. Eventually you aren't able to stop one of the attacks, you pay the piper. Tapped once in a five minute roll, but what the hell did you learn?

Conversely: bottom side control. You try to focus on the technical details (i.e., block the cross face, not flaring elbows wildly, using frames). Maybe you forget one and get punished. Tapped, but learn a valuable lesson. Probably back on bottom side control within a minute, so you get another opportunity to practice your escape. Maybe you try to shrimp, but they follow you. Shit. You'll have to figure out why you aren't escaping them later. Tapped again. Start over. Etc.

Which one seems like the better use of your time? You're going to hit these roadblocks of trying not to get submitted while doing your moves at some point anyway. May as well start now. Otherwise the only skill you're building is turtling up, and I don't really see any application for that in BJJ (other than being up on points and tryin to stall out the clock?), MMA, or self-defense.

 

[finalboss]

I'm going to disagree with the majority opinion I guess, but it also sort of depends on what you mean. If the strategy of "not losing" means you're just turtling up, all you're accomplishing is learning how to lose slower.

You aren't getting submitted at this stage because you're taking high risks that don't pay off, but because you're doing stupid things, ala pushing up on the chest from bottom mount, leaving your elbows wide open away from your ribs like you're doing the chicken dance, not protecting your neck, not knowing when your guard is passed, waiting too long to start the escape from bottom, leaving too much space on top, etc. As a white belt, you're going to do stupid things, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be a white belt.

Focusing on not doing stupid things is a better game plan than not focusing on not losing. Trying to work the escapes/reversals/reguarding/whatever, i.e., doing whatever you should be doing from the position you're in, gives you valuable data that will aid your progress down the road, until you've had the stupid beaten out of you (which is unavoidable, everyone gets beaten like a bongo drum by upper belts when they first start). Therefore, work the techniques you should be working at any given moment. It's great to learn to keep your elbows in, yea. But if you can't keep your elbows in white doing the escape, then it doesn't really matter, because you're never going to go anywhere, you know? And if doing the techniques correctly is "playing not to lose," then I guess we're in agreement then?

For example, bottom side control. You can either cinch up, and just lay there for the rest of the round, and see how long you can survive (limited, if any, purpose or growth). Try to fight off subs as they come. Never try to escape. Depending on how nice they are, they just start attacking. If they're mean, you get a shoulder of justice until you're forced to do something. You pose no threat of escape, so the top guy can just go HAM on attacks. As a defender, you have to defend 100% of attacks to not lose; an attacker only needs 1 successful attack to win. Eventually you aren't able to stop one of the attacks, you pay the piper. Tapped once in a five minute roll, but what the hell did you learn?

Conversely: bottom side control. You try to focus on the technical details (i.e., block the cross face, not flaring elbows wildly, using frames). Maybe you forget one and get punished. Tapped, but learn a valuable lesson. Probably back on bottom side control within a minute, so you get another opportunity to practice your escape. Maybe you try to shrimp, but they follow you. Shit. You'll have to figure out why you aren't escaping them later. Tapped again. Start over. Etc.

Which one seems like the better use of your time? You're going to hit these roadblocks of trying not to get submitted while doing your moves at some point anyway. May as well start now. Otherwise the only skill you're building is turtling up, and I don't really see any application for that in BJJ (other than being up on points and tryin to stall out the clock?), MMA, or self-defense.

I'm definitely not doing things like turtling up, I think I'm rolling more slowly, more methodically. Like sometimes I have a hard time escaping subs, but I'll defend it well and they'll spend a lot of time and energy trying to finish it.

 

[DatCutman]

I'm definitely not doing things like turtling up, I think I'm rolling more slowly, more methodically. Like sometimes I have a hard time escaping subs, but I'll defend it well and they'll spend a lot of time and energy trying to finish it.

I mean I guess? To use an armbar for an example, it makes sense as long as you're working an actual escape to the sub, rather than just clasping your hands and trying to tough it out. Otherwise what's the point of testing how long your grip strength can last, you know?

There's a curmudgeonly part of me that would say you shouldn't spend more time defending the sub than it took you to get there, as then you're violating the 80/20 rule (to keep with the armbar example, 80% of armbar defense is not doing stupid things that expose you to getting armbarred, for instance, while 20% [Or less, really] of defending an armbar involve the specific escapes) with your training. But I also recognize we are humans, not robots, and we do have some small smatterings of pride, and tapping often can be a drag.

 

[Dirty Holt]

If you have a ZERO percent chance at beating a person, its better to roll not to lose.

If you have the ability to catch a person, even if they are better than you, it is much better to roll to win, even if that means exposing yourself. IMO, it is better to lose by submission 4 times in a roll and catch the guy once than to lose all 5 times by 4 points.

 

[yetanother]

There's a curmudgeonly part of me that would say you shouldn't spend more time defending the sub than it took you to get there, as then you're violating the 80/20 rule (to keep with the armbar example, 80% of armbar defense is not doing stupid things that expose you to getting armbarred, for instance, while 20% [Or less, really] of defending an armbar involve the specific escapes) with your training. But I also recognize we are humans, not robots, and we do have some small smatterings of pride, and tapping often can be a drag.

Being able to survive for a really long time in a sub has some (not very big value) in competitions, if you are winning on points and get caught in some hail marry last ditch attempt being able to wait it out helps.

 

[Quebec Nick]

You need to have good defensive moves against all of the common subs, you need to understand how to avoid to get too deep to escape.

But just staying in prayer position to avoid anykind of subs will get you nowhere. Turtling leads you nowhere if you're not trying to get on top or to get back in your guard.

When you get passed, you need to do something and most of the time you need to do something quick.

For sure you're gonna put yourself at risk if you try escapes, you might get your back taken, you might give a sub.

Personaly, I always try to reguard and escape all the time, even if it puts me deeper into shit.

 

[j123]

Rolling, like sparring is practice, you're trying to work material you've learned in live practice.

If you're rolling with people less skilled than yourself, start in shitty positions and work from there.

Against more exp'd partners, all kinds of progress it great. Even if its something minuscule like you managed to get 1 hook in whereas you'd normally get shut down or swept, its good. I could get subbed by all higher belts all night, but if I manage to get something in, even if it may seem insignificant, I take it as a good session.

 

[plataoplombo]

Depends on the mood. But yeah, against higher belts its all about surviving.

 

[finalboss]

Being able to survive for a really long time in a sub has some (not very big value) in competitions, if you are winning on points and get caught in some hail marry last ditch attempt being able to wait it out helps.

I guess I should have clarified myself, of course I don't always defend and pray to Mary Mother of God that the bell will ring. I'll do my damn best to escape the situation. The thing is my gym has a few white belts, a bunch of blues, some purples, and a brown. So most of the time, I'm getting smashed simply because these guys are at a way higher level that I am.

 

[CFGroup]

I guess I should have clarified myself, of course I don't always defend and pray to Mary Mother of God that the bell will ring. I'll do my damn best to escape the situation. The thing is my gym has a few white belts, a bunch of blues, some purples, and a brown. So most of the time, I'm getting smashed simply because these guys are at a way higher level that I am.

Boom! There's your answer! Don't sweat the smashes, those guys have way more experience than you....But in 6 months you'll have more experience...and in a year you'll have more experience...See where this is going.

Don't sweat the smashes, that's telling you where you are right now. Sounds like a small school so hound those high belts anytime you can especially times when you can drill some of your strategy and get their perspective of how they caught you and what was transparent about what you were trying to do.
Just document the shit out of your game plan and compare that to how they're seeing it. Don't think of it as winning and losing, you're not in a real competition, think of it as practice. Once you let go of the immediate and look at the long game you'll appreciate the strategy necessary to keep up with people who have more mat time.

Go hound those high belts! They want good training partners to, and if they're serious about their BB aspirations, not sure about your school, they need to demonstrate the ability to pass on the system. So it's a win win...Plus you can develop good friends who are amped about the same thing.

 

[Vitamin C]

I agree with pretty much all the advice given in this thread and it all applies, but I personally feel as far as white belt learning goes, I agree with DatCutmans advice the most.
I tend to think of my rolling as sessions of live reps. I remember time as a white belt I was getting triangled a lot. I would fight like hell to escape and hold on. I got some advice and practiced it. That was, if I got caught, tap, reset, attempt what I was going for again. Rolling with the higher belts at that time often meant getting triangled 4 or 5 times in a roll, but each one gave me a little insight into what I did wrong. I'd naturally learn a small counter or defence, which I would usually still get readily and easily recountered.
What I'm getting at though is that in one class of rolling, I may have gotten 15+ reps of 'getting triangled' and been able to more thoroughly explore the web of triggers, counters, recounters, defences, etc.
Previously I could maybe hold off by really fighting and gasping and grinding and slow down to 1 or 2 reps of 'getting triangled' per roll, of which those would generally be off the initial basic triggers/mistakes on my end. I'd have a far more rudimentary understanding of and time in the position.

This is generally when I learned that it's OK to reset any attempt at a technique too. If you go for a pass and instead get compromised in your base and nearly swept, abandon the pass. That's one rep live attempt. One failure, but you remain in the top position and can attempt rep #2 right away, only with the new data to input on why your base got compromised and maybe how to avoid that. Alternatively, keep fighting for rep #1, get swept, spend the rest of the round on bottom and get zero additional reps on the pass you are working.

Failure is the foundation of learning.
If we all 100% hit every tech we threw we wouldn't need to train.

The caveat is of course if you're training to compete. That is, working up to a specific competition. I would say then though that competition rolls and rep rolls should still be distinct components of your overall training, but it's only in the full bore comp rolls that you gut out sub attempts, cause in that regard each roll is one rep of a match, and you need to train to win.

 

[youngjune]

Is it wise for higher belts to always smash lower belts? What I mean is if your a higher belt and could submit a lower belt fairly easy why go hard ? Why not teach the lower belt what to do ? I think it depends on the school you go to. Some school the instructors would advise the students to help teach the lower belts while sparring.

Where as others schools I notice that in some BJJ school it's like survival of the fittest. I rolled with a brown belt and I'm white belt. He submitted me like 5 times in 5 minutes. The funny thing is he wanted me to go easy cause initially I was able to put a knee on belly on him . I don't know if he was playing mind games or was being dick cause he was controlling the flow of the sparring match.

Did I learn anything losing to him? No. Maybe if I keep sparring against him but most likely would just get smash again. Unless he slows it down and actually advise me what to do in some situation or have an instructor watch me spar with him and advise me what to do. But in some schools they don't do that. So it's more like survival of the fittest again.
I think this might explain some of the drop out of rate in bjj school. I think.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Is it wise for higher belts to always smash lower belts? What I mean is if your a higher belt and could submit a lower belt fairly easy why go hard ? Why not teach the lower belt what to do ? I think it depends on the school you go to. Some school the instructors would advise the students to help teach the lower belts while sparring.

Where as others schools I notice that in some BJJ school it's like survival of the fittest. I rolled with a brown belt and I'm white belt. He submitted me like 5 times in 5 minutes. The funny thing is he wanted me to go easy cause initially I was able to put a knee on belly on him . I don't know if he was playing mind games or was being dick cause he was controlling the flow of the sparring match.

Did I learn anything losing to him? No. Maybe if I keep sparring against him but most likely would just get smash again. Unless he slows it down and actually advise me what to do in some situation or have an instructor watch me spar with him and advise me what to do. But in some schools they don't do that. So it's more like survival of the fittest again.
I think this might explain some of the drop out of rate in bjj school. I think.

As a brown belt who runs tap trains on white belts, I think it is their responsibility to later reflect back on what went wrong and where they can improve. The brokenness I bless them with should help them get into a meditative state.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you're in an inferior position, you have to defend and try to escape. Simple as that. It shouldn't be that you have two different styles, how you roll should reflect the position you're in at any given point in time. I would not recommend being overly defensive against higher belts, that just means you aren't presenting any challenges and they'll just roll you up, even if it takes longer. On the contrary, you should try harder to pass, sweep, etc. against higher belts. You'll have to to ever get anything on them.

 

[Foppa21]

I've developed two mindsets when I'm rolling with my teammates. When I roll with fellow white belts, I try to submit them as much as possible.

But when I roll with the higher belts, I continually find myself getting smashed and subbed constantly. So I developed another mindset with rolling with higher belts: survive, roll not to lose. I found myself getting submitted less and surviving more. But is this a good mentality to have?

First thing's first, there's no "winning" or "losing" in practice. It's just practice, man. Not a game, but practice.

It ain't terrible, but it might be limiting. To throw a sporting cliche out there "In order to finish first, you first must finish". The higher belts probably have better/tighter setups so you're going to have to work more to get into good positions. This doesn't mean that once you get there, you don't try anything.