Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

nhbbear

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Note: this new megathread is to discuss police action that may be in a gray area, or is either fiercely contested as to whether the action was justified or not.

All of these incidents have generated discussion one way or the other, and each post has its supporters and it’s detractors. To select a police action to put in here, I am selecting cases in which there are strong arguments for both sides and because of such, there have been protests, riots, outrage, experts weighing in, news stories, and maybe even a criminal arrest or trial. Some cases are several years old and have been resolved with lawsuits, but I feel discussing them has merit.

I have chosen to make this thread because any cop shooting or use of force have been merged into either the crime megathread or the what have police done wrong megathread-which is definitely not where these incidents belong.
 
Here is one of the OG incidents and the first one in the new megathread of cops doing bad things. Here it is, what do you think?



Police were called by multiple people stating that a suspect was shooting a gun and shot a person. Description given, Anthony Marquis Franklin was encountered and had a gun in hand. He then ran and was shot in the back by police. Family has lawyers that are demanding charges be brought against the officers involved.

Case law that covers this shooting.

TN v Garner and Graham v Connor

TN v Garner is the case that deals with a fleeing felon and when police can shooting a fleeing subject. Basically, it says that police can only shoot a fleeing suspect when there is an immediate threat to the officers or the public.

Graham v Connor is the case that deals with officer use of force. The force has to be proportional to the crime and risk posed by the suspect without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight based upon information officers possessed at the time of the use of force. I have listed the graham factors in the past. If anyone wants me to list those again, I will.

Bottom line: absolutely justified according to both cases. This suspect had already shot one person, is encountered carrying a gun, and flees-posing a risk to the general public that outweighs the suspect’s fourth amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure (all use of force is a 4th amendment seizure).



https://www.fox7austin.com/news/ant...olice-officers-attorneys-call-for-justice.amp
 
Note: this new megathread is to discuss police action that may be in a gray area, or is either fiercely contested as to whether the action was justified or not.

All of these incidents have generated discussion one way or the other, and each post has its supporters and it’s detractors. To select a police action to put in here, I am selecting cases in which there are strong arguments for both sides and because of such, there have been protests, riots, outrage, experts weighing in, news stories, and maybe even a criminal arrest or trial. Some cases are several years old and have been resolved with lawsuits, but I feel discussing them has merit.

I have chosen to make this thread because any cop shooting or use of force have been merged into either the crime megathread or the what have police done wrong megathread-which is definitely not where these incidents belong.

Might be time to merge some of these megathreads and have one police thread
 
Here’s another incident dumped into a he bad cop thread.



This is the latest outrage incident involving police-this time, in Jacksonville FL. Quick synopsis of the story. Police witness a drug deal occur at a gas station with the suspect, 24 year old, Le’keian Woods, having a heavy looking object in his clothing. One officer that sees this says to the other officers “he has a firearm.” The vehicle the suspect is riding in leaves with the driver not wearing a seatbelt. Cops pull the vehicle over and woods flees from the vehicle and an officer pursues. After many orders to stop running, the officer deploys a taser that has no effect and fires another that has the desired effect. Woods goes down hard, smacking his face off of the pavement. Officer attempts to cuff him and woods resists.

Keep in mind, during this whole discussion that officers observed a heavy bulge in his clothing that they believed was a gun. Not able to get woods handcuffed, the officer punches woods in the face several times and he begins to give up. When he starts cuffing him, he starts resisting again. Then more officers arrive, with one delivering vicious knee strikes. It is a little unclear where these strikes are hitting-the head or the shoulders. Eventually, they are able to get him handcuffed.

Woods is charged with armed drug dealing and a few other charges. Meanwhile, back at the truck, the driver and another passenger completely cooperate, and miraculously, are unharmed. The driver tells the officer there is a gun in the car and the officer thanks him for letting them know that. It turns out, that before running, woods left his gun in the vehicle.

Bystander video shows officers struggling with woods and him being unable to stand after the incident. His mugshot shows his severely swollen face with his eyes swelled shut. The headlines and as always, ben crump, are outraged over the incident claiming that woods was beaten to a pulp over a seatbelt infraction. Mom says that she felt like Emmett Till’s mother watching the video.

The body cam footage shows a good bit more, including the chase, tasing, fight afterwards, and struggle to get him handcuffed.

My opinion of this beating. Completely justified.

First, the gang unit watched a drug deal go down and observed that woods had a firearm in his clothing. Officers are trained on characteristics of armed people. The way they walk, the way they protect or keep their hand wither near or on the weapon, a bulge in clothing, the appearance of something heavy in clothing pulling it down, and some other characteristics. I have been trained on this and have taught it to officers during defensive tactics training.

Second, according to scotus case, Graham v Connor-the standard that all police use of force is judged by, has several Graham factors. I am not going to get into all of them unless someone requests them, but I will touch on a few. Any police use of force is considered a seizure under the fourth amendment. The primary and most important one is that officers believed woods to be armed with a firearm. He ditched it, but the officers had no way of knowing that at the time of the incident. Next, woods was actively fleeing and resisting arrest the entire time and even after a good bit of force was used, he continued to resist until he was overpowered. Another factor is the number of officers vs number of offenders. In the end, there were multiple officers taking woods into custody, but initially, it was just one, which allows for a greater use of force. According to Graham, all use of force must be judged on the information officers have at the time of the incident and can never utilize 20/20 hindsight. What that means is that anyone that says “he didn’t even have the gun on him” are idiots that do not know anything about the rulings on police use of force. I am considered, or was(not sure if there is actually a time limit on this) a police use of force expert based upon my years of experience and training background. I have given multiple depositions for use in lawsuits regarding police use of force for my, and other departments that sought me out. I have testified in federal and circuit court about police use of force. The court of public opinion in the media and social media should not matter, unfortunately, it has been shown to have an increasingly higher effect on such cases, and lawyers like ben crump use that to their advantage. They create and magnify outrage to influence the public, influence prosecutors and politicians, and scare police departments and cities/counties about the size of a potential lawsuit if taken to a jury. ben crump, as much as I hate him, is very good at what he does and has become extremely wealthy and made the families of many shitbag criminals also wealthy.

Third, woods was charged with second degree murder in 2018 after he and an accomplice, Curtis, sold a man, king, drugs, and then tried to rob him. According to King, after he purchased the drugs, woods gave Curtis a signal and he then pulled out a handgun and began shooting at king, who returned fire, killing curtis. Woods was on parole for this crime at the time of this latest incident. I am having some difficulty(only this story pops up) finding exactly what he was convicted of or how much time he served-obviously, no more than five years. It is unknown if officers knew who woods was and if they did, if they were aware of his history.

The bottom line is that woods is obviously a criminal piece of shit as evidenced by his past criminal record and his continued life of crime. The outrage over this incident is pathetic and expected at this point any time race is viewed as a factor. In my opinion, race was not a factor for the police, who witnessed a crime involving an armed suspect, who flees and then fights with police. The outrage and demands for “justice” and social media response, as well as lawyers involvement is what is race based. Not one of them would care one but if woods were white. Videos at the end.




woods links and videos

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/...tcry-against-jacksonville-police/71030468007/



 
Might be time to merge some of these megathreads and have one police thread

Why, though? You don’t think that there should be a differentiation between good police action, or arguably so, and bad police action? I think it is pathetic that we can have half a dozen trump or Biden threads and something that is actually generating an awful lot of buzz and has a good discussion going gets dumped, not only into a megathread, but a megathread whose title automatically indicates the cops were wrong. This particular mod did not take my othal Wallace thread where a cop is murdered and merge that with the mega crime thread. Why not? My personal opinion is that this mod that keeps doing it is anti-cop
 
This is a shooting from 2016 that led to riots and 9 officers being shot and killed in both dallas and Baton Rouge, 11 officers shot and injured, and 2 civilians caught in the crossfire as retaliation for sterling. That much carnage over a pedophile piece of shit.

Sterling was selling illegal cds outside of a convenient store. That is not why police were called. Sterling pulled a gun on a man and told him to leave. Police arrived and gave sterling orders to put his hands behind his back. Sterling refused all attempts to place him in handcuffs. A taser was used and failed twice and he was tackled to the ground. While trying to arrest him, sterling tried to get the gun from his pocket and an officer shot him six times. Just before he is shot, the officer grappling with sterling yells “gun, gun, he has a gun!” The officer that shoots him places the gun against his chest and tells him not to move. Sterling is still moving. Sterling continues to try to get to his pocket and the officer fires. The other officer is then seen removing the gun that is partially out of his pocket.

Other notable facts. The officer that shoots sterling is incredibly unprofessional and threatens to shoot sterling in the head if he doesn’t comply. I had serious issues with that part of the incident, however, they know they are dealing with an armed person that has displayed and made threats with a firearm.

I believe Sterling is using stalling tactics that every cop knows when they act confused and innocent asking what he did wrong. He knows why police are there and I believe he is trying to stall to either try to run (though he is fat and out of shape) or waiting to try and pull the gun, which he tries while on the ground.

The officer that shot sterling is in kind of in side mount. I can’t tell if sterling moves or the other officer moves him while trying to gain control of the hand near the gun, but he definitely jerks before the officer shoots him.

Sterling resists arrest the entire time. Officers try to have him place his hands on the hood of a vehicle to Pat him down and he begins trying to pull away. A taser is then used but it has limited effectiveness and the officer tackles him and the struggle continues on the ground.

Sterling was a registered sexual offender (carnal knowledge of a juvenile) and a felon, making his possession of a gun a no no. He had previous burglaries, domestics, and violent offenses, as well as failing to register as a sex offender.

The officer that fired the gun was fired from brpd for his unprofessional behavior leading up to the shooting.

Listen to the officer’s breathing after the shooting. It is textbook example of adrenaline dump and activation of the parasympathetic nervous system where coordination takes a drastic hit, the body struggles to get enough oxygen, fine motor skills are heavily compromised, the heart races like crazy, Audio and visual exclusions occur which is tunnel vision and loss of hearing, peripheral vision is heavily decreased, uncontrollable shaking and shock like symptoms, stress related behavior looping is often observed (example-an officer repeatedly pulling the trigger on an emptied magazine), and decision making is slowed and/or flawed. I mention this because the officer is clearly super stressed from his body reacting to adrenaline activation and then the adrenaline abruptly leaving the body after extreme stress-such as fear of being shot or after an intense fight.

I get why the officers are amped up-this is a guy that just pulled a gun on someone, but the officer threatening to shoot him in the fucking face posses me off. He resists and shows signs of stalling, which officers are trained to recognize as a signal that a subject will run, fight, or go for a weapon. But an armed felon reaching for his gun is shot and the city settles for almost five million. I am confident that the officer’s words and actions are why tax payers just had to shell out so much money on a shitbag. I strongly believe this shooting was 100% justified and it makes me sick that being related to a pedo can pay 5 million.



Cliffs: a registered sex offender and felon attempts to pull a gun after resisting arrest/detention during a fight with officers and is shot six times. Sparked riots and officers being Murdered. Family gets almost five million dollars.

Four videos-the first and second videos are body camera-one from each officer and both are knocked off during the struggle. The second is a bystander, the third is news story and surveillance from store. Mods-if the second video is too graphic; please let me know and I will immediately delete it.







 
- I'm surprised nobody has proposed babysitters instead of cops to american criminals.
 
Brah you know its just going to get merged...
Don't be a hero just comply.

Don't get mad friend....BUT
Everyone has to admit that it's a bit funny and ironic that the Police Officer won't comply to the Sherdog authority...All while the Sherdog "leftist" authority throwing around and allegedly "abusing" power.

I think we all can find common ground and get a small chuckle out of that.
 
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Rashard Brooks.

Atlanta, 2020. Police called to a Wendy’s drive through for a man asleep at the wheel in the lane. Cops arrive and locate brooks in the driver side of the vehicle. He is detained and officers speak with brooks at length in a very cordial discussion. After it is determined that brooks is intoxicated, the cops go to arrest him for dui. Brooks begins to fight with officers, resisting arrest, and steals one of their tasers and begins to run away with officers in foot pursuit. While running, brooks turns and aims the taser at the officer’s face, prompting the officer to shoot and kill brooks.

Violent riots ensue. The Wendy’s is burned to the ground. A woman and her young daughter are driving down the street where the Wendy’s was located and see the streets are filled with rioters. They try to turn around in the Wendy’s parking lot when some piece of shit begins shooting the vehicle. Never saw confirmation, but rumors swirled that he thought it was plain clothes officers. Anyway, bullets strike the six year old girl, Seqoia Turner, killing her.

Police officer Garrett Rolfe was immediately fired. charged with murder, but charges are eventually dropped. “Five days after the shooting, then-Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard announced charges against Rolfe of felony murder, aggravated assault, violations of oath of office and criminal damage to property. Brosnan was charged with aggravated assault and violating his oath.”

Not only did they fire and charge Garrett Rolfe with murder and aggravated assault, as well as destruction of property?? and violation of oath. And they fucking charged the partner with aggravated assault?! He fired no shots. He was charged with aggravated assault, a felony usually associated with using a weapon. He was also charged with violating his oath. Seriously? They charged a cop with aggravated assault for fighting a man violently resisting arrest?
Rolfe was released on 500k bond. His attorney notified that courts that Rolfe was leaving the state for a few days. They tried to revoke his bond for leaving the state and heading to Florida for a short vacation. brooks’ widow’s lawyer was very upset and tried to argue that Rolfe was fleeing, and how dare he keep his vacation plans (which he already paid for) after “murdering a man in cold blood.” It took two years for the charges to be officially dropped and it was determined that Rolfe was fired without his due process and eventually was allowed to get his job back, but in between the time that he was fired and when he was allowed to return, he lost a lot of money being without a job or taking a lower paying job. The mayor defended the decision to fire Rolfe after his reinstatement saying it was the right thing to do at the time and calmed the community. Brooks’ lawyer was upset and said that Rolfe was the only one getting justice and no one cared about brooks.

Oh, and did I mention that the city settled with brooks’ widow for over 1 million dollars? How fucking insane is this? Almost As bad as the Alton sterling lawsuit, where his family got 5 million. We are paying the families of shitbags for committing criminal acts!!

It was also found Brooks had been under the influence of alcohol and various drugs, according to Skandalakis. White pills testing positive for methamphetamine and Eutylone – alternatives for MDMA and ecstasy – were found in Brooks’ car. A Georgia Bureau of Investigation crime lab test on Brooks’ blood also revealed he was positive for cocaine, cocaethylene and Eutylone, Skandalakis said. Brooks also had a blood alcohol level of 0.102, when the legal limit in Georgia is 0.08.

“They wanted to sound like he was a hulking threat,” Miller said. “That’s not true. Here’s a choice, take your (loss) and then use all the tools at your disposal to lock him up,” adding the officers simply lost a fight to Brooks. (Throwing a dig at officers here)

Miller said what upset him was the fact many of the suspects in recent mass shootings were taken into custody without incident, but Brooks was not given that chance. (All of whom surrendered. Dylan roof-the maniac that shot up a black church surrendered-which is who they so often reference)

“So you can’t catch a drunk guy on drugs running down a Metropolitan Avenue? You have to shoot him in the back? But people who kill 10, 20 people, they can be taken in without incident? We all know this is ridiculous,” he said. “In this situation we believe they got it wrong because a Fulton County jury won’t get to hear this case, and that is a travesty.”



the fight and resisting arrest and theft of taser


the shooting



the aftermath. Notice, this video, the British journalist stresses that brooks points the “non-lethal weapon” at the officer, who uses his “deadly handgun.”


in this video, note that the officer was immediately fired, mayor keisha lance-bottoms says the shooting was unjust, and the family lawyer suggests that for the crime of dui, the officers should have asked him to drive and pull his vehicle over, then call him an Uber. You never let a drunk move their vehicle-ever.



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi... Brooks’ widow, Tomika Miller, and his estate.
 
Brah you know its just going to get merged...
Don't be a hero just comply.

Don't get mad friend....BUT
Everyone has to admit that it's a bit funny and ironic that the Police Officer won't comply to the Sherdog authority...All while the Sherdog "leftist" authority throwing around and allegedly "abusing" power.

I think we all can find common ground and get a small chuckle out of that.

Wrong. I have discussed this with mods. It will not get merged and if it does, it will be reinstated. You don’t find it odd that a thread on a good police shooting that elicited outrage and can generate good discussion on these incidents gets merged into the what did cops do wrong today -volume 6? I don’t know, too many cop threads?

I would like your opinion on some of these. There’s plenty to choose from and many more coming. I can’t search my previous threads because the search function is not working, so I have to write them from scratch, which involves quite a bit of work and research
 
More recent one, still on going.

Manuel teran, known as “tortuguita” or little turtle, is originally from Venezuela. His pronouns are “they/their” because that must be the most important aspect of his existence since it is mentioned in every article immediately. He moved to the US and found his calling in activism.

Eventually finding himself in Atlanta, protesting the “Stop Cop City”movement. Cop city is in reference to a police and first responder training facility that is planned to serve the region for training. It has a hefty price tag of 90 million. Little turtle was living in a tent on public land in the area where the training center is to be built. He called himself a “forest defender.” He and his friends, mostly antifa and activists, have been protesting the facility because they are against any sort of “militarized police training facility” that will train officers in “urban warfare” waging war on “black and brown communities.” Besides protesting with signs and actually occupying the land in tents, this group has also attacked the cops and the equipment on multiple occasions. Another aspect of the protests that little turtle was focused on is protecting the forest surrounding Atlanta that some call the lungs of Georgia. “He loved the forest” as his mom tells every reporter for every story.

The Georgia state police had a planned sweep of the area to remove those living in tents after several attacks had been staged from there. As officers were approaching his tent, he fired four shots from a gun he legally purchased in 2020. He struck a trooper in the gut, prompting police to light his ass up with 57 shots, killing him. After his shooting, the “peaceful” protesters attacked the police throwing Molotov cocktails at the police are equipment. They also rioted in downtown atlanta(video below).

The evidence: The bullet that struck the trooper was matched through ballistics to his gun. He was the only one in the tent. He fired four shots at officers. He had gun shot residue (gsr) on his hands which indicate he fired a gun-more on this in a minute, as it is contested. There were no body cams on these troopers, but Atlanta officers did have cams on and one recorded 4 shots followed by a barrage of shots. There may be helicopter footage, but no one outside the investigation has seen it or knows what’s on it if anything.

The controversy: All say Manuel was a peaceful man, loving the forest and all things(despite buying a gun?). They claim he would have never shot anyone. As for the trooper shot in the gut, they claim one of three things happens-he either accidentally shot himself, another officer shot him, or an officer used his gun to shoot the officer in the gut. They claim the ballistics are faked and that the gun was planted-despite it being registered to him and legally purchased by him in 2020. The family had an independent autopsy done some time after his death. From that autopsy, the family claims that Manuel was seated in a cross-cross applesauce (as my kids say) position with his hands up. They claim based upon where he was struck, there was no way he could have been holding a gun. The autopsy also claims that no gsr was found on his hands or person. It is impossible for there not to be any gsr on his body because he was riddled with bullet holes and gsr will transfer onto clothing a skin when a bullet enters the body. At some point, it was reported in the media that no gsr was found on his hands. No details of the case were being released because of the ongoing investigations being conducted by Georgia bureau of investigations, or gbi. I am not sure where that information came from and I haven’t located a reputable source on this matter. And there is the issue of the body camera video that raises questions. The protesters in the area claim they heard a single volley of shots, disproven by the body cam, however, one of the officers comments after the barrage of shots “are they shooting each other?” Which they claim is proof that one officer shot the other-based upon a comment made by an officer that was not even in visual sight of his tent. And one final conspiracy theory is that antifa claims that there were no shell casings found in his tent. How or where this information came from, I don’t know. I can’t find any source that claims this.

My thoughts: Completely justified. The officers will not be charged per the complete investigation by the gbi. You will see a link below that lists that he had gsr on his hands. I don’t know if it was washed off his body at some point or all the testing erased it, time, or some other cause to explain why the independent autopsy yielded none.

Given that an officer was shot with Manuel’s gun, and the protesters claiming that he did not shoot the trooper, that leaves a few possibilities. One is that he did shoot the trooper. The next few are what the protesters and family believe. The officer shot himself by accident, however, as I explained in the other thread on just this incident, that’s impossible. The angle, for one is wrong. An officer shooting himself would be angled down. There was no blowback(wounds caused from pressure of the round going off), smudge rings(a brown ring of gun powder around skin and clothing from close range), or stippling (injuries caused from particles that come out of the barrel of the gun) around the wound-basically things that indicate a close range shot. Another option is he was shot by a trooper. That would mean they had crossfire(officers aimed at each other from surrounding a target) which officers are obviously trained not to do and approaching a tent from all sides makes no tactical sense because the officers behind the tent can’t see inside it and shooting through the tent from either side endangers the other officers. The protesters that accept that it was Manuel’s gun have a theory that they took his gun and one officer volunteered to be shot in the gut-one of the most painful wounds one can receive. Besides the sheer insanity of suggesting this, you have the issue of the four shots followed by the barrage of shots on body cameras. There is no single shot after the fact, which would be necessary for an officer to take a round from his gun.

So, we have a dead activist and his gun in a tent. A trooper shot in the stomach with ballistics matching his gun. She’ll casings we’re found in the tent despite claims otherwise. Gsr found on Manuel despite claims otherwise. See links below on proof of gsr and she’ll casings. Basically, stop cop city fucks are full of shit.

Notes: since all of this began, authorities are charging the protesters with Rico acts and terrorism charges. Finally, people are recognizing that antifa are terrorists!


videos

first, the body cam of 4 shots followed by dozens








https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/pr...nds-according-gbi/TLMQHD6AQND7ZL6IJHHQNCASH4/

https://heavy.com/news/manuel-esteban-paez-teran/
 
Wrong. I have discussed this with mods. It will not get merged and if it does, it will be reinstated. You don’t find it odd that a thread on a good police shooting that elicited outrage and can generate good discussion on these incidents gets merged into the what did cops do wrong today -volume 6? I don’t know, too many cop threads?

I would like your opinion on some of these. There’s plenty to choose from and many more coming. I can’t search my previous threads because the search function is not working, so I have to write them from scratch, which involves quite a bit of work and research
Did you ever figure out which mod is merging them???
Ok, but watching cop shootings all day is not good for anyone..

When I watch them based off my morals and how I wish the law would be interpreted...Here is my criteria

Justifiable-
Prerequisite: If the stop was legit IMO. Meaning either the person was breaking the law or doing something universally suspicious that would first normally be identified as a crime.
Acts:
-The person brandished any kind of weapon
-The suspect can be seen grabbing for the cops weapon (if they weren't assaulted 1st)
-The suspect put the officer's life at risk via contact with a moving motor vehicle
-The suspect was attacking somebody with a weapon or vehicle & did not stop when ordered.
-The suspect fired shots at or used a weapon on other citizens and or officers and refuses to surrender and drop the weapon.

Things that are not justifiable murders to me:
- Initially stopping somebody for no real crime or in the act of a suspected crime
- If the officer immediately puts hands on a person who didn't commit a crime or somebody who wasn't doing something suspicious that looked identical to a crime
- Resisting arrest
- A fair fist fight or street fight that the officer initiated with physical contact
- Restraining a suspect in a manner to where they have trouble breathing
-Not getting medical attention immediately for people who express health or distress post altercation or detainment
-Having no warrant and entering someone's home.
-Unlawful detainment or property seizure
 
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Did you ever figure out which mod is merging them???
Ok, but watching cop shootings all day is not good for anyone..

When I watch them based off my morals and how I wish the law would be interpreted...Here is my criteria

Justifiable-
Prerequisite: If the stop was legit IMO. Meaning either the person was breaking the law or doing something universally suspicious that would first normally be identified as a crime.
Acts:
-The person brandished any kind of weapon
-The suspect can be seen grabbing for the cops weapon (if they weren't assaulted 1st)
-The suspect put the officer's life at risk via contact with a moving motor vehicle
-The suspect was attacking somebody with a weapon or vehicle & did not stop when ordered.
-The suspect fired shots at or used a weapon on other citizens and or officers and refuses to surrender and drop the weapon.

Things that are not justifiable murders to me:
- Initially stopping somebody for no real crime or in the act of a suspected crime
- If the officer immediately puts hands on a person who didn't commit a crime or somebody who wasn't doing something suspicious that looked identical to a crime
- Resisting arrest
- A fair fist fight or street fight that the officer initiated with physical contact
- Restraining a suspect in a manner to where they have trouble breathing
-Not getting medical attention immediately for people who express health or distress post altercation or detainment
-Having no warrant and entering someone's home.
-Unlawful detainment or property seizure

Your first part-all of these incidents will 100% for all of your criteria and none of the second part.

Your last two with the entry without a warrant? We would have to have a serious discussion about exigent circumstances
 
We would have to have a serious discussion about exigent circumstances
I believe that should be a enter at your own risk scenario. People should not lose any of their rights if there was no danger based off of a hunch or missed assumption. If the cop SAW a crime on or in the property then, ok.
 
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