Law The problem with stand your ground law

What injury did you suffer from him? Where did you need to defend yourself? A lunge doesn’t justify all the bodily harm you did to him.

You pounded on his door. He made the mistake of opening it to a madman. You then used your boxing and mma experience to kick his ass, break his nose, and choke him nearly unconscious. And then have the nerve to make a thread about how it was a good thing he didn’t have a gun to defend himself properly from you?

I hope this story is many years old and you’ve matured and learned from this incident. Lack of priors and a too busy DA’s office are my guess as to how you avoided being charged with this. You definitely would have been charged in America. Maybe UK just much more lenient.


Why is TS not allowed to defend himself when the neighbor lunged at him but the neighbor has a right to shoot TS despite there being no evidence that the neighbor’s life was in danger?

Your post doesn't seem to be grounded in logic or the law. Is there some personal enmity between you an TS?
 
Also when your gf jump in that was an escalation of force.

As they say if you live you hope to learn. You were young and stupid.
 
Also when your gf jump in that was an escalation of force.

As they say if you live you hope to learn. You were young and stupid.
Absolutely. I was pretty angry with her already for shouting STFU through the wall. I felt it was totally unnecessary. She was a hot head. But when she cheap-shotted him in the face I sort of forgave it. I was close to going down a stairwell backwards and she couldn't hear him gurgling for breath. But if she hadn't of done that there would have no visible injury to him and I don't think I'd have ended up in court. The bit that gets me is that his partner witnessed the entire fight, and both of them gave false allegations to the police.
 
No his example covers the delivery driver banging aggressively. How does he know it isn't a home invader trying to force entry?
Most people just do, if they didn’t there would be an epidemic of delivery drivers being shot dead in states that have these laws, and this clearly isn’t happening.
 
Why is TS not allowed to defend himself when the neighbor lunged at him but the neighbor has a right to shoot TS despite there being no evidence that the neighbor’s life was in danger?

Your post doesn't seem to be grounded in logic or the law. Is there some personal enmity between you an TS?

I can't remember any personal issues between us but I know we don't see eye to eye on a lot of issues. But who know's when things turn personal for people?
 
Honestly, I like vacuum on the weekend mornings so it's clean when I watch sports. I would have started blasting.

ff1.jpg
 
Most people just do, if they didn’t there would be an epidemic of delivery drivers being shot dead in states that have these laws, and this clearly isn’t happening.
Ok, it might seem like I'm being a bit silly now but what if that delivery driver is banging your wife and he comes around and bangs extremely aggressively (according to you) on your door? My point is not that certain laws will just give people carte blanche to murder random people but it might give them carte blanche to murder people they don't like or for minor indiscretions?

Like the retired cop who felt so threatened he shot another cinema goer dead and accidentally injured the victims wife when the victim threw popcorn at him?
 
You don't understand, in America we already figured out that the answer is always more guns. If all 3 of you were armed the whole situation would of canceled itself out.
lol the funny thing was there were 4 of us. Him, his partner, my gf and me. It would have been like the ending of Reservoir Dogs in a suburban apartment block of a middle class city.
 
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Ok, it might seem like I'm being a bit silly now but what if that delivery driver is banging your wife and he comes around and bangs extremely aggressively (according to you) on your door? My point is not that certain laws will just give people carte blanche to murder random people but it might give them carte blanche to murder people they don't like or for minor indiscretions?

Like the retired cop who felt so threatened he shot another cinema goer dead and accidentally injured the victims wife when the victim threw popcorn at him?
Well I would imagine in a scenario like that the cops would interview the wife who, out of fear for her own safety, would likely expose the murderous nature of his actions.

The example of the cop is one that I do believe was an inappropriate application of self defense laws, but he was probably given preferential treatment by the justice system due to his law enforcement history, and that’s a separate issue all together.

That being said these incidents happen so infrequently that I don’t believe they’re an indicator of the laws being more harmful than beneficial.
 
This is entirely anecdotal but I wanted to use a real life example of where I see how things can easily go badly wrong with the stand your ground law. And when I say wrong I mean miscarriages of justice.

So first off I live in the UK where there is no strand your ground law. About 20 years ago I lived in new build flat, and the building regulations at the time were really bad. We had plasterboard walls separating next door flats. I could hear normal volume conversations through the walls crystal clear. And these weren't cheap flats.

One Sunday morning at 7am, our neighbours, as they would often do, would vacuum clean the adjourning room to our bedroom, which I assume was their lounge (bad layout). Being mid 20's we liked to lie in on Sunday mornings. So it was quite distressing to us to be regularly woken up at 7 in the morning after less than 4 hours of sleep.

My long-term girlfriend at the time lost it and shouted 'Will you STFU?!' The male neighbour yelled back through the wall, almost instantly 'Go fuck yourself!'. I was annoyed at my gf for losing her temper and escalating things but I couldn't let it go. So I stormed around there. I knocked on the door and got ignored and then I banged really hard on the door to get their attention.

The guy's reaction was to fling open the door and launch himself at me. He was mid to late 30's and was a similar height at 5'11" but had a good 40lbs on me. I'd been boxing for a couple of years and had also done some MMA. My reaction was to punch him in the face to stop his momentum. This caused him to dip his head and body lock me, charging me backward through a door to the communal stair well.

I locked him up in a guillotine and prevented him from sending me backwards done a long flight of stairs. Whilst I had him in the guillotine my gf uppercutted him full in the face busting his nose wide open. I had to yell at her to stop as I had him under control. A few seconds later whilst he was nearing unconsciousness I asked him if he'd had enough. He reluctantly submitted.

A few hours later the police arrived to arrest me. I spent the night in the cells. And I ended up going to court for actual bodily harm. The case eventually got dropped luckily because another neighbour had heard the whole incident and backed up my version of events that he was the aggressor, I was just defending myself and that I hadn't broken his nose. He also claimed that I'd broken the lock on his door by forcing entry whilst trying to kick it down, but I know that was a total lie, so he must have deliberately broken his own lock to fit me up. The police never even looked at that as an issue. They just took his word as verbatim.

The point is, if that was a stand your ground state, he could have probably got away with faking that I'd forced entry and shot me dead. How can that be ok? You just remonstrate with your neighbour about some noise, so my big mistake was banging on his door, and they can easily make out you were threatening them, fake forced entry and shoot you dead.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing responses as to how this situation could be avoided or mitigated. Maybe if I had known my neighbour had a gun I would have never dared to go around to confront him, but doesn't that allow people with guns to bully those that don't? He shouts 'Go fuck yourself!' and I do my best to keep my irate GF quiet?


But... so is the root of your critique of the law that someone might manufacture false evidence to make it look like you were the aggressor?

What's different about that and any other critique? You didn't get off because there was no stand your ground law. You got off because you had witnesses who backed up your story and saw that he was the aggressor.

If he had shot you, and killed you, the the jury would need to decide whether he had done it in self defense or not just the same, and his fake evidence might have convinced them of a lie just the same. I mean... he knew there was no stand your ground law when he faked the evidence, right? He wasn't an immigrant from Texas?

Maybe I'm missing your point.
 
Only a pussy needs a gun for when someone bangs on their door.

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Odd that it didn't make you think about your behavior and how the whole shit show could have been avoided.

I'll ask you again what was in your mind how things would play out when you went to his door?

I find this thinking a little bizarre. First hoovering for several months at 7am on a Sunday morning when you are aware that the walls are paper thin. I personally wouldn't have done that. Secondly my GF losing her rag and shouting STFU through paper thin walls. I wouldn't have done that. Thirdly, the neighbour who had been blindly carrying out anti-social behaviour (debatable) for several months shouting back 'Go fuck yourself!' I wouldn't have done that. And finally me going around and banging on the neighbours door. Surprisingly, I wouldn't have done that either.

But why do you lay the blame for what happened next solely on that individual action? The neighbour could have elected to stay safe behind his door and call the police if he was genuinely intimidated. But he didn't he flung open the door and attacked me knowing that he was 40lbs bigger than me. But it's all entirely my fault. Do you see where I'm going with this?

You rightly called it a shit show. But it's real life isn't it? We all make mistakes.

What I learned was, don't live in shitty flats with paper thin walls. Ultimately people should be free to live their lives without having to worry about upsetting their neighbours through just day to day non-excessive noise. I've never lived in a flat since and never would again. That wasn't the only neighbour we had noise issues with but the only one that turned into a fight. Funnily enough our downstairs neighbours we had a noise issue with, we became good friends with.

And the other takeaway lesson was don't get in fights with anyone who know's your home address.
 
Yes we should treat every altercation as a possible deadly threat .....its still easy enough to avoid. Don't fuckin start shit with people and they won't see you as a threat to be dealt with and the police won't almost throw you in jail for assault or worse

Problem solved.
So some abuses your loved one, but you shouldn't ever go and confront them? Just suck it up?
 
You sound stupid. Starting a fight over a neighbor's noise. What exactly were you hoping to accomplish by banging on his door? That's literally what stand your ground laws are for. Unruly, violent trash people like you and your woman.

Precisely. No fight, no jail etc. Deal with the noise. It's city living.
You are entitled to our opinion even if you seem like a misinformed judgemental c**t. Since when has banging on someone's door ever given someone a right to attack them? The point is the police would never have charged me for defending myself if he hadn't of lied that I'd kicked his door in, and he knew that. He knew full well that in the eyes of the law he was in the wrong. If you are safe behind a locked door and someone bangs on it, in the UK if you come out and attack them, then you are committing the crime.

And that's the whole point of the thread. So I take it from your rather myopic viewpoint that you think I started the fight by banging on his door, rather than him for leaving the safety of his residence and attacking me?

We had a lot of run ins in that apartment with several neighbours to do with noise from both sides. I just realised that human's shouldn't have to live like that. I've never lived in a flat since.
 
Well I would imagine in a scenario like that the cops would interview the wife who, out of fear for her own safety, would likely expose the murderous nature of his actions.

The example of the cop is one that I do believe was an inappropriate application of self defense laws, but he was probably given preferential treatment by the justice system due to his law enforcement history, and that’s a separate issue all together.

That being said these incidents happen so infrequently that I don’t believe they’re an indicator of the laws being more harmful than beneficial.
Fair enough. If there is no significant abuse of the law then it's not an issue for me.
I did find this admittedly seemingly race-baiting article that claims 18,000 killed after 'racist' stand your ground laws. But if most home-invasion are committed by black offenders then it stands to reason that most deaths due to stand your ground laws are going to be black offenders.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...niversary-stand-your-ground-law-b2023978.html
 
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That had not much to do with stand your ground type laws.

If anything it would be castle doctrine and escalation of force.

More escalation of force. You escalated the force to deadly force when you started choking him. However he started the fight so that is factor. You were lucky things could have gotten real shitty.

Agreed. It's pretty much 2 hot-headed dicks escalating a situation into physical violence. It's not much different from 2 guys in a bar yelling at each other then moving on to shoves and throwing hands. Conscious choices were made by all parties to continue escalating the situation until someone got bloodied up enough to cry uncle. Stand your ground doesn't apply (I'll explain this later) and castle doctrine is rather questionable and can be argued either way depending on the lawyers.

Under English Common Law which is what the Commonwealth nations and US law is based on, there's a duty to retreat which means you must make a reasonable effort to de-escalate or retreat from a potential altercation before you start throwing hands. Depending on the jurisdiction there's different standards or outright exceptions for one's home or workplace. For example, if some guy gets in my face at the bar and starts yelling at me and threatening violence, I can't punch him straight off the bat. I need to make a reasonable attempt at de-escalating the situation and/or getting the fuck out before I can deck him. If the same thing happened at my home I can uppercut him right away.

What stand your ground means is there is NO duty to retreat when confronted with a potential altercation outside one's home or workplace. If I have a reasonable belief that my life is in danger or I'm about to suffer significant physical harm, I can immediately respond with the appropriate level of force for self-defence. The key words being "reasonable belief" and "appropriate level of force". If a 5 year old girl is taking swings at me I can't slam her on her head and soccer kick her, but if a 6'5" Sherdogger is going after a 90lbs granny she can shoot him full of buckshot until he stops moving. It's not a license to beat up or kill people like many think, you still need to prove reasonable cause and use the appropriate amount of force or you're going to jail.
 
I have a ring doorbell and 2 security cameras in the front of my house. If someone banged on my door I wouldn't react kindly, but at least I have the ability to communicate through the ring ap. Hopefully I could deescalate the situation or tell him to get off of my property. Hopefully, he would comply. If not, the situation would deteriorate for him.
 
That had not much to do with stand your ground type laws.

If anything it would be castle doctrine and escalation of force.

More escalation of force. You escalated the force to deadly force when you started choking him. However he started the fight so that is factor. You were lucky things could have gotten real shitty.
So the fact that he was trying to push me backwards down a stair well was not deadly force? What do you think would have happened if I'd just let him shove me backwards down 2 flights of stairs?
 
You should have got your useless woman to come with you and film the interaction so you had video evidence

Then post it on Worldstar
 
I have a ring doorbell and 2 security cameras in the front of my house. If someone banged on my door I wouldn't react kindly, but at least I have the ability to communicate through the ring ap. Hopefully I could deescalate the situation or tell him to get off of my property. Hopefully, he would comply. If not, the situation would deteriorate for him.

I recently installed some CCTV because of suspected vandalism. With in the second week I was alarmed to catch an attempted walk in burglary in the small hours. We have a front porch that we left open all the time for deliveries and the guy tried to gain entry but the inner door was locked. He also tried to get into my car. Without that camera we would have no idea that had happened. One night we might have inadvertently forgot to lock the inner door and who know what might have happened as a result. I've now alarmed the outer door, lock it at night, always activate the alarm before going to bed and I have a quick reaction drill that I practice for dealing with intruders.
 

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