Law The problem with stand your ground law

[cincymma79]

That really means a lot to me coming from you lol
You throw out condescending insults as though it happened yesterday but failed to notice it happened 20 years ago. Way to go Mr. Observant, I'll be sure to ask your advice for any past life events when I need some judgemental hindsight to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Your problem with stand your ground laws is that you can’t assault people in the middle of the night. It’s a hot take

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Thanks for reading.

Ok that's good information that I wasn't aware of, if it's limited to deadly force it seems pretty reasonable and logical too. If you know, how much does that vary amongst the stand your ground states?

Not entirely sure. I would suspect its similar.

Ultimately its a framework to use when a given situation goes to trail.

Someone could try to thwart the law to kill someone, but they'd have to run the gauntlet of the legal system.

Similarly, its a basis of protection of a weaker person who get's threatened with a deadly encounter.

Then there's the Castle Doctrines, which are similar, but revolve around one's property/dwelling.

There's a ladder of force criteria with self defense, (I'm speaking of Texas here) put very simply, level of force can be administered to match what's coming at you.

Words to words, on up to weapons to weapons.

And it has to be imminent and immediate, (they like those two words)

Ex: Neighbor is standing in your yard with a baseball bat, yelling at you, but at some distance. You can't just mow him down.

But if you get a knock on your door, open up and he comes charging at you with said bat, then he's fair game.

Situational.

 

[shankmcgank]

I agree they were scared of racially targeting a clearly fairly ethnically homogenous group, but I think it was mostly to do with cultural homogeneity BUT let's not forget the victims, no one, not the police or the authorities gave a shit about them. There have been plenty of grooming gangs going back down the years and whilst the ethnicity of the perpetrator's has changed the victims have remained pretty much the same. So yes the police clearly avoided going after the gangs because of being accused of racially profiling the attackers but they also ignored the crimes because of who the victims were.

If they were middle class school girls getting abused you can bet they would have move heaven and earth to do something about it regardless of the attackers skin colour. The vulnerable of society are often the victims of most crimes, that's never changed. And notice the focus of the outrage of these crimes? It's not about the victims other than they were mostly white it's the fact that it was Pakistani men doing it. I bet there wouldn't be nearly as much uproar if it was white men doing it.

In fact here's an article about just that, there are more white grooming gangs than asian in the UK.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xual-abuse-gangs-white-men-home-office-report

Anyway what does any of this have to do with the thread??

The person you responded to said you were close to becoming a statistic. You replied that you wouldn't want to live in a country where that is the norm.

I replied to you that I wouldn't want to live in a country where rape gangs run around freely, and I don't care what color skin the rapists have. The fact you found more evidence of rape gangs running around just reinforces my feelings.

You don't want our guns and gun laws and we don't want your rape gangs and virtue signaling.

Hopefully you understand now?


In other news, I think people who vacuum at 7am are assholes. I have a neighbour to my house that loves to bang his garbage bins around every Wednesday Morning and wake us up at 630am, and he fucking LOVES to weed whack on weekends at 8am, again waking us up. So I do agree with you that people who do shit like that are inconsiderate assholes.

 

[Belaya Smert]

Gotta check that ego and remove yourself from the situation. It sucks but that’s the reality of existing in modern civilization. You acting aggressive and threatening would most likely get a jury to back the other guy when it goes to court. If you have the ability to safely retreat it’s actually would negate the stand your ground (for him) from a legal perspective here in the States. Or at least per the letter of the law is supposed to be the case unless you feel imminent bodily harm is likely to occur.

 

[JonnyBonesPharmacist]

Pics of girlfriend?

 

[JadeOwl]

This is entirely anecdotal but I wanted to use a real life example of where I see how things can easily go badly wrong with the stand your ground law. And when I say wrong I mean miscarriages of justice.

So first off I live in the UK where there is no strand your ground law. About 20 years ago I lived in new build flat, and the building regulations at the time were really bad. We had plasterboard walls separating next door flats. I could hear normal volume conversations through the walls crystal clear. And these weren't cheap flats.

One Sunday morning at 7am, our neighbours, as they would often do, would vacuum clean the adjourning room to our bedroom, which I assume was their lounge (bad layout). Being mid 20's we liked to lie in on Sunday mornings. So it was quite distressing to us to be regularly woken up at 7 in the morning after less than 4 hours of sleep.

My long-term girlfriend at the time lost it and shouted 'Will you STFU?!' The male neighbour yelled back through the wall, almost instantly 'Go fuck yourself!'. I was annoyed at my gf for losing her temper and escalating things but I couldn't let it go. So I stormed around there. I knocked on the door and got ignored and then I banged really hard on the door to get their attention.

The guy's reaction was to fling open the door and launch himself at me. He was mid to late 30's and was a similar height at 5'11" but had a good 40lbs on me. I'd been boxing for a couple of years and had also done some MMA. My reaction was to punch him in the face to stop his momentum. This caused him to dip his head and body lock me, charging me backward through a door to the communal stair well.

I locked him up in a guillotine and prevented him from sending me backwards done a long flight of stairs. Whilst I had him in the guillotine my gf uppercutted him full in the face busting his nose wide open. I had to yell at her to stop as I had him under control. A few seconds later whilst he was nearing unconsciousness I asked him if he'd had enough. He reluctantly submitted.

A few hours later the police arrived to arrest me. I spent the night in the cells. And I ended up going to court for actual bodily harm. The case eventually got dropped luckily because another neighbour had heard the whole incident and backed up my version of events that he was the aggressor, I was just defending myself and that I hadn't broken his nose. He also claimed that I'd broken the lock on his door by forcing entry whilst trying to kick it down, but I know that was a total lie, so he must have deliberately broken his own lock to fit me up. The police never even looked at that as an issue. They just took his word as verbatim.

The point is, if that was a stand your ground state, he could have probably got away with faking that I'd forced entry and shot me dead. How can that be ok? You just remonstrate with your neighbour about some noise, so my big mistake was banging on his door, and they can easily make out you were threatening them, fake forced entry and shoot you dead.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing responses as to how this situation could be avoided or mitigated. Maybe if I had known my neighbour had a gun I would have never dared to go around to confront him, but doesn't that allow people with guns to bully those that don't? He shouts 'Go fuck yourself!' and I do my best to keep my irate GF quiet?

Let me preface by saying that based on your own description, you, your girlfriend and your neighbor all sound like assholes. The only difference is a matter of degrees.

That being said, that anecdote is the perfect example of why less guns floating around is a good thing. Keeps bad situations from escalating by a whole order of magnitude.

 

[ChuckSteak]

LOL ask any 20 something in the UK if it's unsociable on a Sunday morning? I'm not saying I'm 100% right, I just highlighted from my perspective at the time.
Even now personally I think hoovering loudly next to someone's bedroom is pretty unsociable at 7 in the morning even on a weekday when you know the walls are paper thin. I think you'd be a bit of an inconsiderate cunt for doing so.

Arguments aside ultimately I blame the building regulations for allowing them to be built like that. The most common issue that causes tension between neighbours in the UK is noise.

The fuck do 20 somethings have to do with deciding social behaviors for other people?

Well, at the time, you were a dipshit. We agree on that. Verdicts out if that's still the case.

 

[rob mafia]

Let me preface by saying that based on your own description, you, your girlfriend and your neighbor all sound like assholes. The only difference is a matter of degrees.

That being said, that anecdote is the perfect example of why less guns floating around is a good thing. Keeps bad situations from escalating by a whole order of magnitude.

there should be "less guns floating around" because OP and his big mouthed girlfriend started a fight and assaulted their neighbor because he was cleaning his own apartment? (note: story involves 0 guns... and 0 syg laws)

this forum is aids.

 

[aries]

The fuck do 20 somethings have to do with deciding social behaviors for other people?

Well, at the time, you were a dipshit. We agree on that. Verdicts out if that's still the case.

You are prize knob, no need for a verdict on that. No reasonable person in the UK who lives in an apartment with paper thin walls who has even a shred of consideration for their neighbours hoovers regularly at 7am on a Sunday morning. So fuck off with your ridiculous assertions.

 

[Snowblindlove]

Castle doctrine makes sense but stand your ground is BS

 

[aries]

there should be "less guns floating around" because OP and his big mouthed girlfriend started a fight and assaulted their neighbor because he was cleaning his own apartment? (note: story involves 0 guns... and 0 syg laws)

this forum is aids.

People like you are aids. I got assaulted for the crime of banging on someone's door, which is why I got off scot free in court when my claim of self-defence was backed up by an independent witness. Even though the neighbours lied through their teeth to 'win' because they couldn't in real life. Justice prevailed in the end.

And the happy ending is the fuckers moved out the next day, turns out they were just renting. We got new decent considerate normal neighbours who we never had any issue with for the next 2 years. Win win for everyone.

 

[Snowblindlove]

I didn't object to the noise, my gf did. I objected to the neighbour telling my gf to go fuck herself. Overall I felt they were in the wrong. Loud hoovering at 7 in the morning nearly every Sunday? That's as bad as if I played loud bass music at 3am on a weekday. It's anti-social behaviour to me.

On a side note. I dont believe humans are meant to live in such crowded conditions.

Flats suck unless you are penthouse or subpenthouse.

Homes with small yards suck

Townhomes suck

Give me land with a large home and no neighbors a stones throw away or a penthouse or let me own the damn building

 

[aries]

Your problem with stand your ground laws is that you can’t assault people in the middle of the night. It’s a hot take

Why can't you people argue in good faith? You have to alter reality to even make your point. Banging on someone's door does not give someone a right to assault me, much less use deadly force. The guy knew that which is why he broke his own lock to fit me up. You people are insane!

 

[aries]

On a side note. I dont believe humans are meant to live in such crowded conditions.

Flats suck unless you are penthouse or subpenthouse.

Homes with small yards suck

Townhomes suck

Give me land with a large home and no neighbors a stones throw away or a penthouse or let me own the damn building

I totally agree. It's no way to live. The UK has a real issue with space (artificially created as 90% of the UK is undeveloped). I have friends in Italy and they have far more apartments but they are built to a much higher standard and don't cost nearly as much.

 

[rob mafia]

People like you are aids. I got assaulted for the crime of banging on someone's door, which is why I got off scot free in court when my claim of self-defence was backed up by an independent witness. Even though the neighbours lied through their teeth to 'win' because they couldn't in real life. Justice prevailed in the end.

And the happy ending is the fuckers moved out the next day, turns out they were just renting. We got new decent considerate normal neighbours who we never had any issue with for the next 2 years. Win win for everyone.

i didn't say you were found guilty, genius.

i said you (plural) assaulted your neighbor. which you explained in detail (favorite part was gf punching restrained neighbor in the face ["busting his nose wide open"]... how you think you two didn't assault him is astounding) in the first post. but dumber, now you're claiming that YOU were the victim. by your own stupid admission, your gf started the incident by yelling and you escalated by bringing it to your neighbor's door. lolz @ this victim narrative. woe is you.

also, factual, is that NOTHING was relevant to guns or stand your ground laws.

aids.

 

[rob mafia]

Why can't you people argue in good faith?

says the one that explained how he and his gf assaulted someone but denied it's assault. who posted about SYG/guns, despite being literally 100% irrelevant.

if we omitted your bad faith arguments, there's no text to quote.

 

[JonnyBonesPharmacist]

Sooner or later youll fk with the wrong guy. Your gilrfriend too. Watch

 

[unimackpass]

Oldest recorded rule of law includes "stand your ground law" kinda.

Was brushing up on some Mesopotamia history and ran across this for whatever it's worth.

-The Code of Hammurabi is a Babylonian legal text composed c. 1755–1750 BC. It is the longest, best-organised, and best-preserved legal text from the ancient Near East. It is written in the Old Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, purportedly by Hammurabi, sixth king of the First Dynasty of Babylon. The primary copy of the text is inscribed on a basalt or diorite[note 1] stele2.25 m (7 ft 4+1⁄2 in) tall.

The stele was rediscovered in 1901 at the site of Susa in present-day Iran, where it had been taken as plunder six hundred years after its creation. The text itself was copied and studied by Mesopotamian scribes for over a millennium. The stele now resides in the Louvre Museum.

The top of the stele features an image in relief of Hammurabi with Shamash, the Babylonian sun god and god of justice. Below the relief are about 4,130 lines of cuneiform text: one fifth contains a prologue and epilogue in poetic style, while the remaining four fifths contain what are generally called the laws. In the prologue, Hammurabi claims to have been granted his rule by the gods "to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak". The laws are casuistic, expressed as "if ... then" conditional sentences. Their scope is broad, including, for example, criminal law, family law, property law, and commercial law.

• breaking and entering (21)
• burglary (22–24)
• looting burning houses (25)

If a man breaks into a house, they shall kill him and hang him(?) in front of that very breach. (21)[79]

 

[ChuckSteak]

You are prize knob, no need for a verdict on that. No reasonable person in the UK who lives in an apartment with paper thin walls who has even a shred of consideration for their neighbours hoovers regularly at 7am on a Sunday morning. So fuck off with your ridiculous assertions.

Gotten to...

Your exact response here show's why you were wrong then, just like you are now. You're just a cunt that has no self control. You cause all your own problems then blame others for them. Grow up.

 

[Archie Goodwin]

The only problem with stand your ground laws is that more places need to have it

And by "more" I mean "everywhere"