Media Title defences be damned, Khabib is the GOAT because he's the BEST to ever do it. (Long Read)

kflo said:
really?

rda, conor, poirier, gaethje are the only wins clearly ahead of a serra win.
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4 of the best wins on anyones resume at the time he fought them considering he completely destroyed all of them.

Which was Okamoto's point. Khabib doesn't have the most names on his resume, but he's still the best to ever do it.
 
kalabula said:
The PED thing is really tough for me. It seems like it’s more of a question of whether or not a fighter has been caught as opposed to if they’re using.
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I made an argument earlier in the thread why I think Khabib is one of the few clean athletes in the sport, but even that's irrelevant. All that matters in terms of ped's is what we actually have evidence of, and that's that Anderson Silva cheated.
 
Maybe Khabib was truly the best ever. Maybe Earl Manigault was truly the GOAT basketball player as many say. The reality is tho that we have to see them prove it on the highest stage and put up Michael Jordan type numbers. Lebron could be more talented than Jordan, but Jordan gets the GOAT nod currently because of his numbers. Khabib has not done that. Heck, Julio Cesar Neves was 30-0 before he fought his first top 100 ranked guy. Three title defense, and two against ex feather weights while you cut 40 pounds to make weight, failed weight three times, ended up in hospital one time, and had the commission help you cheat the scale last time out does not make you the GOAT. The true GOAT would be able to fight the best fighters at his natural weight like Fedor did and had the high level success for as long as he did. Going out of one's prime does not change the reality of how great someone was, and we should not reward fighters that retire before they get into the thick of things either. Lol, if Ronda retired before she fought Holmes would she be the WMMA GOAT?

I am fine saying he has had the most dominant run in the UFC, but until he goes up in weight and takes on some men his own size and at a higher level, we can not call him the GOAT. Even if he went up, lost to Usman but beat Colby and Khamzat, I would rank him higher than I do now.
 
hbombfromhell said:
4 of the best wins on anyones resume at the time he fought them considering he completely destroyed all of them.

Which was Okamoto's point. Khabib doesn't have the most names on his resume, but he's still the best to ever do it.
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they are separate points. khabib dominated his best opponents. and he didn't fight the same # of quality opponents as other contenders. they are both facts.

the more fights you have against dangerous opponents the higher likelihood / risk of losing. dismissing serra as average when he'd clearly be one of khabib's best wins isn't really good debating.
 
i will say, in fairness, jordan was considered by many to already be the GOAT when he first retired in '93 because of his perceived level of play.
 
sampuncher said:
Not at all, but we were talking about Khabib beating Gaethje in the OP so it's relevant, I haven't once said Gaethje isn't a solid fighter, he is and the Tony win was a great performance, one of the best we've seen, the other wins were great but there's also a load of other guys who hold wins over Cowboy, Edson and Vick in recent years, I'm more intrigued what he does next fighting other top ranked guys and where he goes from here.
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Gaethje has better wins than quite a few guys that have gotten title shots over the past 10-15 years that were considered "great" wins.

And I have no doubt that he'll stay at the top of the division. Being mauled by Khabib shouldn't change that
 
Hoist The Flag said:
Maybe Khabib was truly the best ever. Maybe Earl Manigault was truly the GOAT basketball player as many say. The reality is tho that we have to see them prove it on the highest stage and put up Michael Jordan type numbers. Lebron could be more talented than Jordan, but Jordan gets the GOAT nod currently because of his numbers. Khabib has not done that. Heck, Julio Cesar Neves was 30-0 before he fought his first top 100 ranked guy. Three title defense, and two against ex feather weights while you cut 40 pounds to make weight, failed weight three times, ended up in hospital one time, and had the commission help you cheat the scale last time out does not make you the GOAT. The true GOAT would be able to fight the best fighters at his natural weight like Fedor did and had the high level success for as long as he did. Going out of one's prime does not change the reality of how great someone was, and we should not reward fighters that retire before they get into the thick of things either. Lol, if Ronda retired before she fought Holmes would she be the WMMA GOAT?

I am fine saying he has had the most dominant run in the UFC, but until he goes up in weight and takes on some men his own size and at a higher level, we can not call him the GOAT. Even if he went up, lost to Usman but beat Colby and Khamzat, I would rank him higher than I do now.
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Khabib is tied for the longest win streak in UFC history among non ped cheats, and is the only man to finish 3 top 10 p4p fighters consecutively, to say he hasn't proven himself on the biggest stage is quite the stretch.

Having said that, your argument was at least reasonable until the second paragraph. Khabib is an average sized LW by every possible metric we have, simply one who's body did not respond well to cutting weight, and also used outdated weight cutting methods.

Also my speculation, is that the reason he has a hard time cutting weight and looks like someone with a high BF% whenever he bulks up is because he's one of the few clean athletes in the sport who won't even put alcohol into his body due to his religious beliefs.
 
kflo said:
they are separate points. khabib dominated his best opponents. and he didn't fight the same # of quality opponents as other contenders. they are both facts.

the more fights you have against dangerous opponents the higher likelihood / risk of losing. dismissing serra as average when he'd clearly be one of khabib's best wins isn't really good debating.
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He wouldn't be one of his best wins. He's the same caliber of fighter as Trujillo, Healy, Iaquinta and any of the other lesser opponents Khabib has beaten in the UFC.

He's not even Barboza quality.
 
hbombfromhell said:
He wouldn't be one of his best wins. He's the same caliber of fighter as Trujillo, Healy, Iaquinta and any of the other lesser opponents Khabib has beaten in the UFC.

He's not even Barboza quality.
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that's just not true. he was pretty even in the cage with guys like hughes, penn, karo, edwards, lytle. people like to try to dismiss him but he belonged in the cage with the elite guys of his era. to say he's just of a caliber of anyone below the elite khabib fought is ridiculous.
 
kflo said:
that's just not true. he was pretty even in the cage with guys like hughes, penn, karo, edwards, lytle. people like to try to dismiss him but he belonged in the cage with the elite guys of his era. to say he's just of a caliber of anyone below the elite khabib fought is ridiculous.
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Okay he's 11-7 bro, Besides throttling GSP, who are his best wins?

He's not even close to a Barboza quality fighter.
 
How come people don't take into account McGregor being an inactive fighter, or him and Poirier being former Featherweights, or Justin losing to an old Eddie Alvarez?

So yeah, any win can have holes poked in it, that's why longevity matters.
 
sampuncher said:
I find when people talk about Khabib's resume, they really over exagerrate the talent level of Gaethje, I like him, he's a solid fighter but 10 years from now I don't think we'd all be talking about him being one of the solid wins to define if someone is GOAT or not.

If we're talking about Gaethje in a seperate convo that doesn't include Khabib, most people would say he's a great fighter but definitely beatable.
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People also indict Mike Tyson for fighting in an era where HW was considered shallow. Was the weightclass shallow or was Tyson making them look bad because he was so dominant?

Justin could have been remembered as a great champ but he likely wont go down in history that way because Khabib had him scouted perfectly.
 
hbombfromhell said:
Okay he's 11-7 bro, Besides throttling GSP, who are his best wins?

He's not even close to a Barboza quality fighter.
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he beat gsp and showed he was competitive with matt hughes and bj penn. again, people can just dismiss those as losses but that doesn't speak to the level he fought at.
 
electricfuneral said:
People also indict Mike Tyson for fighting in an era where HW was considered shallow. Was the weightclass shallow or was Tyson making them look bad because he was so dominant?

Justin could have been remembered as a great champ but he likely wont go down in history that way because Khabib had him scouted perfectly.
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Possibly, but I don't think it's nailed on guaranteed that Gaethje would be champ in the division if Khabib never existed personally.

I don't think Gaethje's in Khabib's top 3 wins personally, that's all.
 
kflo said:
he beat gsp and showed he was competitive with matt hughes and bj penn. again, people can just dismiss those as losses but that doesn't speak to the level he fought at.
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He's 11-7 with next to no notable wins outside of GSP.

Barboza is 21-9 with wins over Pettis, Hooker, Melendez, Felder and Castillo.

Not even in the same ballpark.
 
Khabib's top wins are shite compared to any other GOAT candidate and that's just a fucking fact
 
kflo said:
he beat gsp and showed he was competitive with matt hughes and bj penn. again, people can just dismiss those as losses but that doesn't speak to the level he fought at.
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You're arguing with someone whose clearly looking at his 11-7 record only and judging a fighter based solely on that, it's not worth it.
 
hbombfromhell said:
He's 11-7 with next to no notable wins outside of GSP.

Barboza is 21-9 with wins over Pettis, Hooker, Melendez, Felder and Castillo.

Not even in the same ballpark.
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the caliber of fighter isn't only measured by their performances in their wins....

i grant that barboza has an argument for being a slightly better win but it's in a similar ballpark for khabib's #5.....
 
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