Elections US Democratic senator Joe Manchin will not seek re-election in 2024

[cottagecheesefan]

He is not a democrat by any modern standard. He was a holdover from earlier version of party, exclusive to west virginia's blue collar workers

They will now probably elect a republican

the current governor, Jim justice (R), already announced, and was crushing Manchin in the polls. Has had double digit lead over Manchin, in pretty much ever poll, since announcing in the spring. Some polls have had him over 20 points ahead.

 

[Sinister]

I disagree. I think they could pick a socially moderate more economically left candidate and win. Especially if the GOP picks a wingnut. West Viriginians support a 15 dollar minimum wage, which Manchin was opposed to.

What Dems need is a Union populist who knows what issues to shut the f*ck up about. And that's still only a slim chance of beating Justice. But a Union candidate who rails against how terrible the Coal bosses are could give him a real run.

 

[Via Heeto]

He’s 76. Are we supposed to be shocked

pretty young as far as dems in office go

 

[LMP]

He's always been a conservative Democrat. The parties dont signify right or left. There are a few Conservative Democrats. Cuellar is also one, and is famously anti-choice.

Democrats are a right wing party, change my mind.

 

[Sinister]

Democrats are a right wing party, change my mind.

No

 

[cincymma79]

pretty young as far as dems in office go

Hasn’t even shit his first pants yet

 

[UFCUCF]

I disagree. I think they could pick a socially moderate more economically left candidate and win. Especially if the GOP picks a wingnut. West Viriginians support a 15 dollar minimum wage, which Manchin was opposed to.

I wish you were correct, but Biden is socially moderate and more economically left and he got destroyed by Trump. I don’t remember the last time a Dem won statewide office in WV?

care to make a wager? Without Manchin it’s a red seat.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Democrats are a right wing party, change my mind.

What's the baseline and how are you measuring?

The Manifesto Project as of 2019 had them a pretty normal major left-wing party for a developed nation. Remember too that our system doesn't really allow for multiple parties so the two parties should be looked at as pretty broad coalitions. I think a lot of leftists have (wisely) tried to downplay some extreme proposals by pointing out that some form of them is used in other countries, but a lot of that is path dependence (and people forget that for a similar reason, U.S. taxation is extremely progressive).

 

[blaseblase]

I wish you were correct, but Biden is socially moderate and more economically left and he got destroyed by Trump. I don’t remember the last time a Dem won statewide office in WV?

care to make a wager? Without Manchin it’s a red seat.

I'm talking about the senate seat, not the presidential race. And no, Biden isnt economically left. He also has no charisma and played into identity politics. He'd make an awful candidate in West Virginia. I'm talking about a populist.

 

[LMP]

What's the baseline and how are you measuring?

The Manifesto Project as of 2019 had them a pretty normal major left-wing party for a developed nation. Remember too that our system doesn't really allow for multiple parties so the two parties should be looked at as pretty broad coalitions. I think a lot of leftists have (wisely) tried to downplay some extreme proposals by pointing out that some form of them is used in other countries, but a lot of that is path dependence (and people forget that for a similar reason, U.S. taxation is extremely progressive).

Obviously this is just my opinion here. Capitalism is inherently right wing. Capitalism by itself isnt wrong or a bad system. It creates a top down structure where money is typically focus on the top. Both parties are fine diverting money in to private business. This tends to reinforce the structure and is often done in the name of creation of jobs. I'm not arguing Democrats or Republicans are bad here, just that both parties are right wing by nature of supporting Capitalism.

 

[Sinister]

Obviously this is just my opinion here. Capitalism is inherently right wing. Capitalism by itself isnt wrong or a bad system. It creates a top down structure where money is typically focus on the top. Both parties are fine diverting money in to private business. This tends to reinforce the structure and is often done in the name of creation of jobs. I'm not arguing Democrats or Republicans are bad here, just that both parties are right wing by nature of supporting Capitalism.

I concur, Democrats...as a party, just want the working class more comfortable in their place in the economic hierarchy. They are not egalitarian.

 

[LMP]

I concur, Democrats...as a party, just want the working class more comfortable in their place in the economic hierarchy. They are not egalitarian.

I think there are quite a few Democrat politician that are actually leftist. As you said though the party itself is not. As a worker in America you have no rights to the profits you generate, and are generally paid only a fractional amount compared to your productivity.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Obviously this is just my opinion here. Capitalism is inherently right wing. Capitalism by itself isnt wrong or a bad system. It creates a top down structure where money is typically focus on the top. Both parties are fine diverting money in to private business. This tends to reinforce the structure and is often done in the name of creation of jobs. I'm not arguing Democrats or Republicans are bad here, just that both parties are right wing by nature of supporting Capitalism.

Capitalism was one of the original left-wing causes. And it inherently dissolves existing hierarchies (then creates new ones, that are unstable). We associate it with the right in America because when the parties were sort of becoming ideologically sorted, the Cold War was a big issue in the sorting, and rightists adopted Anti-Communism and a particular rightist vision of capitalism as key pillars of their ideology.

 

[Sinister]

Capitalism was one of the original left-wing causes. And it inherently dissolves existing hierarchies (then creates new ones, that are unstable). We associate it with the right in America because when the parties were sort of becoming ideologically sorted, the Cold War was a big issue in the sorting, and rightists adopted Anti-Communism and a particular rightist vision of capitalism as key pillars of their ideology.

Can you source that opening statement? Genuine question of curiosity.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Can you source that opening statement? Genuine question of curiosity.

Not sure where Jack is going to take this, but I’m betting it involves England hundreds of years ago, the rise of liberalism, etc.

 

[LMP]

Capitalism was one of the original left-wing causes. And it inherently dissolves existing hierarchies (then creates new ones, that are unstable). We associate it with the right in America because when the parties were sort of becoming ideologically sorted, the Cold War was a big issue in the sorting, and rightists adopted Anti-Communism and a particular rightist vision of capitalism as key pillars of their ideology.

I'm interested to hear why you believe this. Feudalism had suffered greatly for a variety or reasons and was no longer working. Mercantilism had presented many problem with the ability to control markets. Early Capitalism presented a new way for existing hierarchies to maintain control. Instead of solely being responsible for the manor, the existing hierarchies where able to expand new control over the markets.

 

[Sinister]

Not sure where Jack is going to take this, but I’m betting it involves England hundreds of years ago, the rise of liberalism, etc.

Well from my understanding the emergence of the idea of market economics in Europe from times of class revolution was little more than a way to still perpetuate hierarchies, they would just be economic rather than overtly social (Monarchy). But this is what led me to agree with the notion that if a person believes in economic hierarchies. They also believe in social ones.

 

[brothir]

Can you source that opening statement? Genuine question of curiosity.

Do you even Smith, bro?

I'm interested to hear why you believe this. Feudalism had suffered greatly for a variety or reasons and was no longer working. Mercantilism had presented many problem with the ability to control markets. Early Capitalism presented a new way for existing hierarchies to maintain control. Instead of solely being responsible for the manor, the existing hierarchies where able to expand new control over the markets.

Well from my understanding the emergence of the idea of market economics in Europe from times of class revolution was little more than a way to still perpetuate hierarchies, they would just be economic rather than overtly social (Monarchy). But this is what led me to agree with the notion that if a person believes in economic hierarchies. They also believe in social ones.

This is almost all wrong. "Feudalism had suffered greatly" is too imprecise to be meaningful, "(...) perpetuate hierarchies, they would just be economic rather than (...)" is downplaying the significance of the difference to a laughable degree, and "if a person believes in economic hierarchies. They also believe in social ones." is either a fallacy or abusing terminology to the point that the argument is meaningless.

 

[MMAisGod]

I concur, Democrats...as a party, just want the working class more comfortable in their place in the economic hierarchy. They are not egalitarian.

I've never actually thought of it like this before, but I think it makes a lot of sense when thinking about it in depth.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Can you source that opening statement? Genuine question of curiosity.

I'll maybe do a longer post on this sometime. Short version, though, is that the move from feudalism to capitalism was a big leftward step. Note that Chomsky even cites Smith as his biggest influence.

To me, the more interesting thing is how the right got associated with support for capitalism, and it relates to FDR's presidency (which is when we really start seeing sorting on the left/right spectrum in political parties).