Opinion What does "Make America Great Again" mean to you? And how do you see it being great again?

[avenue94]

Which decades are you talking about? I'm assuming by 'Thee Franchise' you mean right to vote. But you said, America was pretty much a proto-democracy up until recently. Proto democracies are often seen as basic direct democracy without elected representatives, when has the US ever been that?

I define proto-democracy as effectively the imperfect stage as a country transitions to proper democracy. My personal view is the US was a proto-democracy up until the last major exclusion to voting was removed (Civil Rights era 1960s) for adults.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I define proto-democracy as effectively the imperfect stage as a country transitions to proper democracy. My personal view is the US was a proto-democracy up until the last major exclusion to voting was removed (Civil Rights era 1960s) for adults.

That's an odd definition, especially used in a way where you assume people would know what your personal definition is. The US has been an intricate and advance Democracy since the late 1700's.

 

[The Diplomat]

I think there is an overarching American identity that has developed over the past couple of centuries, but it's frequently contradictory and not shared by the entire country. There's never been that kind of identity really, the country has always been too diverse and regionalized for it.

I think it's more accurate to say there are several conceptions of what it means to be "American" and what those "American values" are, and you'll see pretty clear differences based on region.

TLDR: See something along Colin Woodard's work in American Nations.

That entire thing is what it means to be an American. A unified vision of freedom is the main objective, which I don't think any other country, past or present, can attest to. Having different opinions on how to get there is what keeps the cycle going. Some progress here, a little regress there, etc. Ideally, different points of view is what has made our country look itself in the mirror every now and then, for better or worse.

Perfect? No. But compared to any other nation of our size, cultural differences and freedoms? It's as close as we've been so far.

 

[The Diplomat]

At what point did the US become a representative democracy? The country was effectively a proto-democracy until very recently. America is a very impressive country, and I'd argue impressive enough that we don't need to resort to Schoolhouse Rock mythmaking and can acknowledge past failures and how we have improved on them.

It's always been a representative democracy, at least on a national level. It's a republic by its very nature.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Aye. It's a big country. It'd be nice if everyone appreciated the differences for what they are, considering we're still the strongest.

Also, Fuck the CCP.

It's not that. Think of what comes to mind when you think America: DC, NYC, The Declaration of Independence, Harvard, The New Colossus, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Gettysburg Address, Disney, the Civil Rights movement, baseball, football, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, Ford--all things that are hated by the right today.

 

[Sinister]

During the many decades where the majority of adults didn't have the franchise? Past that, it depends on how one defines democracy since there are many qualitative and quantitative measures of it.

Yeah pretty much. I'd argue the US identity was primarily a "resistance identity" for a lot of time (similar to what you see with many other national liberation movements), and then it involved into some shared values. But also plenty of contradictory and controversial values that led to a constantly moving target.

Apropos to the thread, I think one of the hallmarks of American identity is its malleability and ability to correct for past exclusions.

That would be a great identity if it didnt make the donor class violently angry.

 

[Jack V Savage]

That's another part of what kind of makes us awesome. Yeah, sure, we're a melting pot. We'll accept that role. But we're also the longest running representative democracy on the planet.

Those are not in conflict. The reason we're a melting pot is our representative democracy. We're a nation of laws rather than culture, religion, or ethnicity.

 

[Sinister]

It's always been a representative democracy, at least on a national level. It's a republic by it's very nature.

It's a bit of a farce of a representitice democracy. All States having the same number of representatives is idiocy. Having citizens counted in the census who dont have voting rights is also pretty whack.

 

[The Diplomat]

It's not that. Thing of what comes to mind when you think America: DC, NYC, The Declaration of Independence, Harvard, The New Colossus, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Gettysburg Address, Disney, the Civil Rights movement, baseball, football, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, Ford--all things that are hated by the right today.

Aye. I'm trying to be an optimist, and not a generalist/stereotyper. Hard these days, I know.

 

[Deorum]

Not according to our High Priests

Alito and Thomas will be dead in a couple of years, and I certainly wasn't promoting originalism. It's very clearly a living document, and we're literally living under it. You're very much free to disagree that it should form the core of national identity, but it's objectively the core of national existence, the oldest existing charter of national government, and a boon of incredible proportions for individual liberty. Nobody is claiming that the rights applied equally at its inception, but the framework itself allows for that possibility and we've gradually worked our way towards it through the post-Civil War Second Founding, Progressive Era, and Civil Rights Movement. It's not that dire, brother.

 

[The Diplomat]

It's a bit of a farce of a representitice democracy. All States having the same number of representatives is idiocy. Having citizens counted in the census who dont have voting rights is also pretty whack.

Deeming some states as completely useless isn't very nice, though.

[edit] Another thing people forget is resources from said state. Iowa or Nebraska aren't very populous, but are the #2 and #3 producers of food in the US.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

It's a bit of a farce of a representitice democracy. All States having the same number of representatives is idiocy. Having citizens counted in the census who dont have voting rights is also pretty whack.

Laugh out loud, what?

 

[Sinister]

Alito and Thomas will be dead in a couple of years, and I certainly wasn't promoting originalism. It's very clearly a living document, and we're literally living under it. You're very much free to disagree that it should form the core of national identity, but it's objectively the core of national existence, the oldest existing charter of national government, and a boon of incredible proportions for individual liberty. Nobody is claiming that the rights applied equally at its inception, but the framework itself allows for that possibility and we've gradually worked our way towards it through the post-Civil War Second Founding, Progressive Era, and Civil Rights Movement. It's not that dire, brother.

Personally I prefer the tone of the Declaration of Independence. Any document that had to be amended to consider black people human beings is tainted IMO, and also, as stated earlier in the thread, the Framers had the express intent of preserving the power of wealthy landowners. Now, Presidents can do more than we think to curtail the power the SCOTUS took for itself with the concept of judicial review, but in this hot political climate they risk atomic-bombing their career doing so, outwardly undermining an institution at a time when institutional faith is already fragile.

That said I do appreciate your input here. And the more productive tone of the conversations with those I generally am stringent disagreement with.

 

[Sinister]

Laugh out loud, what?

Having citizens counted for census purposes who have no voting rights is whack.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Having citizens counted for census purposes who have no voting rights is whack.

So, infants, toddlers, exchange students, illegals, uncle visiting from Europe for a year; they should get voting rights?

 

[avenue94]

That's an odd definition, especially used in a way where you assume people would know what your personal definition is. The US has been an intricate and advance Democracy since the late 1700's.

What are you defining as democracy? The US would not have passed most of the quantitative tests up until the 20th century, so it seems odd to argue that the US was a democracy, let alone an intricate and advanced one in the 1700s.

It's always been a representative democracy, at least on a national level. It's a republic by its very nature.

There seems to be some loose guidelines here. What you're saying would mean modern China or Singapore are democracies. What percent of the adult population needs to be able to represent themselves?

 

[The Diplomat]

What are you defining as democracy? The US would not have passed most of the quantitative tests up until the 20th century, so it seems odd to argue that the US was a democracy, let alone an intricate and advanced one in the 1700s.

There seems to be some loose guidelines here. What you're saying would mean modern China or Singapore are democracies. What percent of the adult population needs to be able to represent themselves?

Modern China is authoritarian, since there is only one party. The government, not the people, actively harasses anyone not in line.

 

[Sinister]

Deeming some states as completely useless isn't very nice, though.

[edit] Another thing people forget is resources from said state. Iowa or Nebraska aren't very populous, but are the #2 and #3 producers of food in the US.

Whoah, representation isnt a zero-sum game. Are you aware of what a combination of representatives and Senators can do? Right now we're on track to have 70% of Americans have only 30% of representatives in the Statement. Madison would be throwing hands over that.

 

[Sinister]

So, infants, toddlers, exchange students, illegals, uncle visiting from Europe for a year; they should get voting rights?

Note I said citizens, my guy. And I was mainly referring to ex-cons.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Another question of curiosity, when was this period you think we had a collected sense of "National identity"...?

There's a reason I'm asking these questions.

The national identity of America is built on freedom, liberty, democracy, a pioneering spirit, individualism and a number of other things. There isn’t a period of it.

The National Identity of Japan is different than China. It’s what makes Americans who we are. We are more than just our geographical location. If there is no commonality to our beliefs there is no country.

Let me ask you something, are there differences between countries? The answer is obviously yes. Differences between cultures between different countries? Obviously, yes.

Why do you feel the need to believe that nations don’t have indenties?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.