Where do you rank Israel Adesanya among the greatest MWs of all-time?

[Dirty Frank]

I got Anderson Silva as #1, so he would be #2.

Depending what happens in the future, we'll see if he goes down or up. Only time will tell.

Silva's PED record makes me uneasy putting him on top.
Will have Izzy as number 1, as much as I dislike the guy.

 

[Gamer007]

I guess #2 but this is dumb.

Better to wait until his career is over, if he loses his next 3 fights by brutal finish all of these #2 opinions will change drastically, I've seen it 100 times. A career is like a story, but we don't know where we're at in the Adesanya story. We could be at the beginning of a legendary comeback and two belt crusade, or it's about to get bad and his reputation and status will change immensely. We don't know enough yet imo, we really don't even know how strong this era actually is.

Historically how good will Brunson, Whittaker, Old Yoel, Marvin, etc be viewed in 5-10 years? If Khamzat or some new upstart wins the belt in easy fashion it might totally change how some people view the strength of schedule among other things. Then we still have Alex in the shadows plotting his revenge, who knows how that might change opinions down the line.

The Romero and 2nd Whittaker fight were really close, particularly the Romero fight ( I think Romero won). People who understand the sport will go back and see those events, and the title defense argument for Adesanya might suffer down the line. People already have questions about how he would've dealt with Peak Luke or Peak Weidman, so maybe we'll get more evidence about his grappling prowess in the future.

I'm not ready to prematurely stamp him somewhere when all that can change fight to fight in a few months. Seemed like many people really thought Adesanya was the #1 MW a few weeks ago, now he's #2 lmao. If he loses again, he'll go from #2 to #3 in many people's mind, let's just enjoy the show for now. When Anderson Silva was losing fights post career threatening injury and 40+ years of age, "fans" were still knocking him down a peg in GOAT discussion all the way to the point where some think he is #4 all time, yet in 2013 were calling him the undisputed goat.

Silva 11 defenses (robbed of 1 from Lutter not making weight)
Adesanya 5 defenses (interim title shouldn't count)
Weidman 3 defenses
Rich Franklin 2 defenses

The gap isn't as big as some make it out to be, Adesanya is far closer to the top 3-5 than he is to the #1 spot objectively. I'm not even a fan of Weidman but he did fight peak Luke, 2016 Yoel, and then Moose all back-to-back. Anderson fought the best champs at the time, hall of famers. elite wrestlers, elite BJJ fighters, KO artists, etc. Has Adesanya faced elite wrestlers? elite BJJ fighters?

I don't consider 2020 Yoel who didn't wrestle or Brunson as elite MMA wrestlers, Brunson was good but was more often a beserking power puncher lol. Who is the best proven MMA adapted BJJ fighter Adesanya has fought? Can we say definitevly at this time?

 

[ThaiSexPills]

I love Wand as much as the next guy but there is no way his career at middleweight comes close to Izzy's mw career. Are you confusing what pride called their mw division? That's really the only explanation

Yes. I’m counting it and idc what anybody says. Prime Wanderlei would have put the fear of god in Izzy… but then melted a USADA cup.

 

[BowserJr]

#3

Looking at performance per fight, Whittaker is far more impressive. He's arguably 1, 1 with Izzy.

He doesn't have the title defenses but he faced the same guys Izzy defended against and was more impressive doing so

 

[Miokink026]

In before someone says Alex Pereira is the #2 all time MW with his lengthy list of notable wins of Izzy & Strickland

it's so easy to argue when the other side has only one person named Straw Mann.

 

[GoshiShun17]

I guess #2 but this is dumb.

Better to wait until his career is over, if he loses his next 3 fights by brutal finish all of these #2 opinions will change drastically, I've seen it 100 times. A career is like a story, but we don't know where we're at in the Adesanya story. We could be at the beginning of a legendary comeback and two belt crusade, or it's about to get bad and his reputation and status will change immensely. We don't know enough yet imo, we really don't even know how strong this era actually is.

Historically how good will Brunson, Whittaker, Old Yoel, Marvin, etc be viewed in 5-10 years? If Khamzat or some new upstart wins the belt in easy fashion it might totally change how some people view the strength of schedule among other things. Then we still have Alex in the shadows plotting his revenge, who knows how that might change opinions down the line.

The Romero and 2nd Whittaker fight were really close, particularly the Romero fight ( I think Romero won). People who understand the sport will go back and see those events, and the title defense argument for Adesanya might suffer down the line. People already have questions about how he would've dealt with Peak Luke or Peak Weidman, so maybe we'll get more evidence about his grappling prowess in the future.

I'm not ready to prematurely stamp him somewhere when all that can change fight to fight in a few months. Seemed like many people really thought Adesanya was the #1 MW a few weeks ago, now he's #2 lmao. If he loses again, he'll go from #2 to #3 in many people's mind, let's just enjoy the show for now. When Anderson Silva was losing fights post career threatening injury and 40+ years of age, "fans" were still knocking him down a peg in GOAT discussion all the way to the point where some think he is #4 all time, yet in 2013 were calling him the undisputed goat.

Silva 11 defenses (robbed of 1 from Lutter not making weight)
Adesanya 5 defenses (interim title shouldn't count)
Weidman 3 defenses
Rich Franklin 2 defenses

The gap isn't as big as some make it out to be, Adesanya is far closer to the top 3-5 than he is to the #1 spot objectively. I'm not even a fan of Weidman but he did fight peak Luke, 2016 Yoel, and then Moose all back-to-back. Anderson fought the best champs at the time, hall of famers. elite wrestlers, elite BJJ fighters, KO artists, etc. Has Adesanya faced elite wrestlers? elite BJJ fighters?

I don't consider 2020 Yoel who didn't wrestle or Brunson as elite MMA wrestlers, Brunson was good but was more often a beserking power puncher lol. Who is the best proven MMA adapted BJJ fighter Adesanya has fought? Can we say definitevly at this time?

Naaaaa brodie. He's defined not close to AS. But he's clear number 2 without having to win another fight.

You mention title defenses as the only criteria. BUUUUTTTT how about this?

Israel has 8 title fight wins, 7 if you want to discount Gastelum. I wouldn't but ok. The next closest is Weidman with 4 title fight wins.

Adesanya also has the second longest win streak at 185. I believe he would have tied AS before narrowly losing to Pereira the first time.

#3

Looking at performance per fight, Whittaker is far more impressive. He's arguably 1, 1 with Izzy.

He doesn't have the title defenses but he faced the same guys Izzy defended against and was more impressive doing so

This is silly logic my guy. First off every fight is different. You can argue that Whittaker beat up damaged fighters. But let's not say that.

With your logic I guess Brunson is better than Whittaker because he beat Till better.
Cannonier also beat Vettori worse than anyone.

Didn't Israel beat Brunson easier than Whittaker did?

You see how that silly stuff is irrelevant.

 

[newms84]

Yes. I’m counting it and idc what anybody says. Prime Wanderlei would have put the fear of god in Izzy… but then melted a USADA cup.

Not to mention prime Wand was a weight class higher. You counting his pride mw fights is so intellectually dishonest it's not even worth arguing

 

[pankrat]

Not to mention prime Wand was a weight class higher. You counting his pride mw fights is so intellectually dishonest it's not even worth arguing

I dont think is so dishonest. At the end of the day, we are comparing two guys of the same size.
Just because back then there wasnt much of a MW circuit so the money for a prize fighter was at LHW doesnt change they are two guys of the same size.

It would be like comparing Jens Pulver with modern LWs who are vastly bigger than him instead of BWs which is his size. Is that a more honest comparison? I'd say is rather unfair

Although to be fair Wand was juiced out of his mind back then so...

 

[Ironheart]

Decent list right here imo but my heart feels like Franklin should be there somewhere, although reality may not warrant it lol

I think it does. I'd swap Mike out with Rich but otherwise my list is identical. I think it's important to consider how good a fighter was relative to their competition, which I think puts Rich ahead of Bisping pretty clearly for me, at least.

 

[newms84]

I dont think is so dishonest. At the end of the day, we are comparing two guys of the same size.
Just because back then there wasnt much of a MW circuit so the money for a prize fighter was at LHW doesnt change they are two guys of the same size.

It would be like comparing Jens Pulver with modern LWs who are vastly bigger than him instead of BWs which is his size. Is that a more honest comparison? I'd say is rather unfair

Although to be fair Wand was juiced out of his mind back then so...

It is dishonest when arguing the greatest middleweight of all time. So now guys like rampage, Overeem and Arona are middleweights?

 

[ThaiSexPills]

Not to mention prime Wand was a weight class higher. You counting his pride mw fights is so intellectually dishonest it's not even worth arguing

He was a MW who made 185 when given the chance. “Intellectually dishonest” . He fought at MW and was certainly not bigger than Adesanya. I’m counting it - deal with it. If pride had a 185, he would have fought there. You and I both know pride Wanderlei was better.

 

[newms84]

He was a MW who made 185 when given the chance. “Intellectually dishonest” . He fought at MW and was certainly not bigger than Adesanya. I’m counting it - deal with it. If pride had a 185, he would have fought there. You and I both know pride Wanderlei was better.

If you want to count him as a middleweight that's fine but when arguing the greatest middleweight of all time you can't factor in his mw wins in pride, it's absolutely dishonest. Who did Henderson fight to unify the pride mw title? It tells you all you need to know.

 

[Chillez]

Locked at #2 clear gap between whoever you have at 3 or 4.

 

[BowserJr]

Naaaaa brodie. He's defined not close to AS. But he's clear number 2 without having to win another fight.

You mention title defenses as the only criteria. BUUUUTTTT how about this?

Israel has 8 title fight wins, 7 if you want to discount Gastelum. I wouldn't but ok. The next closest is Weidman with 4 title fight wins.

Adesanya also has the second longest win streak at 185. I believe he would have tied AS before narrowly losing to Pereira the first time.

This is silly logic my guy. First off every fight is different. You can argue that Whittaker beat up damaged fighters. But let's not say that.

With your logic I guess Brunson is better than Whittaker because he beat Till better.
Cannonier also beat Vettori worse than anyone.

Didn't Israel beat Brunson easier than Whittaker did?

You see how that silly stuff is irrelevant.

Naaaah broham, you're purposefully conflating single fights with an accumulation of fights and that's just silly or facetious.

Ya Brunson looked better than Whittaker vs Till BUUUUTTT that's only 1 single fight.

Cannonier looked slightly better vs Vettori but again 1 single fight and different fighter. Just cuz Cannonier and Brunson are African American it doesn't make them the same person.

When you look at all common opponents between Whittaker and Izzy, Rob is simply better.

Rob objectively was more impressive than izzy when facing Romero, Kelvin, Vettori, Jared, Tavares. Brunson is a toss up.

Had Rob faced all those guys in title defenses before losing to Izzy and arguably winning the 2nd time. He'd be considered #2 without question.

The only real difference was holding the belt vs those guys (sans brad)

 

[pankrat]

It is dishonest when arguing the greatest middleweight of all time. So now guys like rampage, Overeem and Arona are middleweights?

If you want to argue about resume at the very specific 185lbs limit
1. There is not much debate, Israel is clear cut #2.
2. It's a very autistic/nerdy way to aproach the matter. Or maybe uneducated about the sports history and speficically the 185lbs weightclass.

For example, Ezzard Charles is widely ranked among greatest LHW boxers of all-time despite his resume at the specific LHW class is thin and actually never won the LHW tittle.
The Ring magazine rated him as the greatest LHW boxer of all-time. Is The Ring magazine dishonest??

Similarly would go when rating a guy as Dan Henderson or Frankie Edgar. No, I dont think it's dishonest to consider Dan Henderson a MW (he weighted the same than Israel) and rate his career as a whole.
I think it actually shows a wider, deeper understanding of the topic at hand than getting autistic about the specific limit of lbs established for a given bout.

 

[newms84]

If you want to argue about resume at the very specific 185lbs limit
1. There is not much debate, Israel is clear cut #2.
2. It's a very autistic/nerdy way to aproach the matter. Or maybe uneducated about the sports history and speficically the 185lbs weightclass.

For example, Ezzard Charles is widely ranked among greatest LHW boxers of all-time despite his resume at the specific LHW class is thin and actually never won the LHW tittle.
The Ring magazine rated him as the greatest LHW boxer of all-time. Is The Ring magazine dishonest??

Similarly would go when rating a guy as Dan Henderson or Frankie Edgar. No, I dont think it's dishonest to consider Dan Henderson a MW (he weighted the same than Israel) and rate his career as a whole.
I think it actually shows a wider, deeper understanding of the topic at hand than getting autistic about the specific limit of lbs established for a given bout.

The question was where does Izzy rank all time at middleweight. The guy I originally responded to was literally counting his pride mw wins when they were at 200 pounds. All your passive aggressive telling me I'm not an educated fan will not change that. Also, you wrote all that without answering my question. So now we're counting guys like rampage, Arona and Overeem as middleweights? Everybody loves Wand, guy had one of the most exciting fighting styles ever, he's nowhere near Izzy at middleweight and it is dishonest to count his mw wins in pride. Who did Henderson fight to unify the pride mw belt? It wasn't Silva, he fought Rampage. It's funny you brought up Henderson as well because going by your logic, Henderson should be considered one of the greatest welterweights of all time right? See how silly that is

 

[pankrat]

The question was where does Izzy rank all time at middleweight. The guy I originally responded to was literally counting his pride mw wins when they were at 200 pounds. All your passive aggressive telling me I'm not an educated fan will not change that.

There was no passive agressivenes in me saying that being educated on the history of the 185lbs professional MMA circuit for MW sized guys is an important factor to adress this topic.
Back in the day, top middleweight prizefighters didnt have money in the 185lbs circuit. No more no less. Dont need to take it personal.

You accused others of being "dishonest" just for having a different and very reasonable approach to this topic.
I showed you other prestigious panel of pundits as Ring magazine took such approach as well.
You refuse to even consider anything beyond your prejudices and call others including Ring magazine as "dishonest". That's funny.

Rampage, Arona and Overeem as middleweights?

Unlike Wand, those guys never even fought at MW, let alone got a ranked win at MW as Wand did.
There is nothing that suggest they could have been career MW, or were MW sized fighters.
Why you even include Overeem, a guy who killed himself to make LHW even when he was young and skinny? WTF?

It's funny you brought up Henderson as well because going by your logic, Henderson should be considered one of the greatest welterweights of all time right? See how silly that is

Why?
Henderson didnt fight at WW. Based on what would he be considered a WW?
Henderson is a MW sized fighter, it's widely reported that he weighted around the average for MW sized fighters in fight night. I mean, it's not that hard to understand why some fans/pundit would prefer to compare him with fighters who were around his same size and weghted around the same as him. Why do you flat out refuse to even consider this as a valid approach? I dont get it.

Yes, many people rate him as MW fighter taking his career as a whole, in simimlar manner they do for Machida, Belfort or Mousasi. Not Overeem. For very obvious reasons.

You can disagree but get it right, it's not about dishonesty, it's about trying to have a deeper look into the topic, and it's no different than the criteria boxing pundits have been using to asses all-time greats for many years.

 

[newms84]

There was no passive agressivenes in me saying that being educated on the history of the 185lbs professional MMA circuit for MW sized guys is an important factor to adress this topic.
Back in the day, top middleweight prizefighters didnt have money in the 185lbs circuit. No more no less. Dont need to take it personal.

You accused others of being "dishonest" just for having a different and very reasonable approach to this topic.
I showed you other prestigious panel of pundits as Ring magazine took such approach as well.
You refuse to even consider anything beyond your prejudices and call others including Ring magazine as "dishonest". That's funny.



Unlike Wand, those guys never even fought at MW, let alone got a ranked win at MW as Wand did.
There is nothing that suggest they could have been career MW, or were MW sized fighters.
The fact you even include Overeem in there suggest you don't have much of a clue on the topic at hand.
Why Overeem, a guy who killed himself to make LHW? WTF?



Why?
Henderson didnt fight at WW. Based on what would he be considered a WW?
Henderson is a MW sized fighter, it's widely reported that he weighted around the average for MW sized fighters in fight night. I mean, it's not that hard to understand why some fans/pundit would prefer to compare him with fighters who were around his same size and weghted around the same as him. Why do you flat out refuse to even consider this as a valid approach? I dont get it.

Yes, many people rate him as MW fighter taking his career as a whole, in simimlar manner they do for Machida or Mousasi.

You can disagree but get it right, it's not about dishonesty, it's about trying to have a deeper look into the topic, and it's no different than the criteria boxing pundits have been using to asses all-time greats for many years.

The original argument was the guy counting wins in pride at mw. You can't say Rampage wasn't a mw but then count Wand's wins over rampage as mw wins, that's what's dishonest. Henderson was the pride ww champ, that's why I brought it up because counting Wand's mw wins in pride to argue him as a greater mw than izzy is the same as counting Henderson's wins at ww in pride and arguing for him as one of the greatest ww's of all time. You're talking more of a p4p argument when the actual discussion is ranking Wand ahead of Izzy at mw.

 

[ThaiSexPills]

If you want to count him as a middleweight that's fine but when arguing the greatest middleweight of all time you can't factor in his mw wins in pride, it's absolutely dishonest. Who did Henderson fight to unify the pride mw title? It tells you all you need to know.

Izzy doesn’t get past Hendo or Wanderlei and IMO, they both accomplished more. Not gonna be that guy to claim Izzy sucks because he lost his belt but I don’t think he’s on the level, peak for peak of any of those guys.

 

[pankrat]

The original argument was the guy counting wins in pride at mw. You can't say Rampage wasn't a mw but then count Wand's wins over rampage as mw wins, that's what's dishonest. Henderson was the pride ww champ, that's why I brought it up because counting Wand's mw wins in pride to argue him as a greater mw than izzy is the same as counting Henderson's wins at ww in pride and arguing for him as one of the greatest ww's of all time. You're talking more of a p4p argument when the actual discussion is ranking Wand ahead of Izzy at mw.

Well, if the other guy counted MW Pride wins just because they were nominally "MW". Like this was a semantic debate. I agree it's pretty stupid or dishonest.

I was indeed talking more of a p4p argument. Not sure if p4p is the word because what I suggest is actually trying to compare guys who are around the same size/weight, but you get my point.