Why doesn't anyone use the nogueira style sitout anymore?

[EndlessCritic]

For those unfamiliar, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was one the greatest BJJ fighters in MMA history. He had a number of signature moves on the ground, including his triangle, deep half guard, and anaconda choke. But above all, it's possible his coolest signature move was his sitout while maintaining control of the arm.

The classical sitout to complete a takedown (which is itself rarely used in MMA) is seen here being executed by Thiago Tavares against Jason Black



From a traditional wrestling perspective, Tavares executes the technique in a very orthodox fashion by immediately releasing the arm with his left hand. By contrast, Nogueira always maintained control of the arm.

Watch him hit it against Sapp here:



Against Zulu here:



Against Kharitonov here:



And, once and for all, Nogueira fatefully attempted it against Frank Mir in their rematch, which Mir countered by taking the kimura because Nogueira left his right arm exposed.




I am not aware of this move being attempted, let alone executed since Nogueira/Mir 2. The question is why? How can a technique that was used so many times by one of the greatest grapplers in history be completely unused now for over a decade?

 

[Shaolin Alan]

Great examples, TS and a very well put together post.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

IIRC he even pulled it off against Couture.

Looking forward to an answer.

 

[TheMadHatter]

Definitely something I am going to try in the gym now. cool post

 

[sonhow]

Its a very cool looking move.

Maybe trrainers advice against it due to risk-reward? Fear of ending in bad position?
As a fan I love this type off stuff.

 

[PabloMEX]

It is interesting, but I would feel kind of awkward doing that. Ideally I would want to explode and have my opponent faceplant. Nogueria is crafty guy tho. Good post TS!

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Guys are too busy training to make weight instead of innovating and improving their skills...

Fighters should really get back to cutting less or not cutting weight at all


The overall game will improve

 

[ReasonableMan]

It's vastly inferior to the standard peek out.

As with most questions of this form, our first clue is that we never see this technique at the higher levels of the sport of wrestling, while we do see the classic peek out.

Now we shall explain why this technique is inferior, using the same right/left convention from your clips---that is, the bottom wrestler is attempting to peek his head out to his own left side (his opponent's right side).

In either version, the goal of the bottom wrestler is to clear the right arm to attack the hips of the opponent. Roughly speaking, the bottom wrestler must attach his right ear to the right hip of the opponent. A proper finish would then come typically via a "windshield wiper" of the legs of the bottom man, driving the top man to his own left side, approximately 90 degrees clockwise from the direction of the bottom man's spine.

Nogueira attempts to initiate the peek out by pinning the opponent's right arm behind his own neck, while securing a grip on the right wrist with his own left wrist.

Relative to the standard peek out, the Nogueira-style peek out greatly expands the distance the bottom wrestler's head must travel to reach its target. The trapping of the right arm of the opponent by the bottom wrestler is of little use; a good top wrestler doesn't only have his right arm to use to defend the bottom wrestler from reaching his goal---he also has the advantage of "heavy hips", balance, rotational motion with his legs, and gravity.

In the Nogueira-style attack, the top wrestler has precious extra time and distance to prevent the bottom man from getting into a proper takedown or reversal position using the advantages listed above. Rewatch the Zulu clip in slow motion. You will discover that even a grappling neophyte like Zulu would have had time to sprawl and defend Nogueira's finish if he had thought to do so.

 

[flektarn]

Looks interesting. Something Aljo should learn. I kind of worry if someone could grab mount or your back from it if they're crafty but I'm not an expert.

 

[EndlessCritic]

It's vastly inferior to the standard peek out.

As with most questions of this form, our first clue is that we never see this technique at the higher levels of the sport of wrestling, while we do see the classic peek out.

Now we shall explain why this technique is inferior, using the same right/left convention from your clips---that is, the bottom wrestler is attempting to peek his head out to his own left side (his opponent's right side).

In either version, the goal of the bottom wrestler is to clear the right arm to attack the hips of the opponent. Roughly speaking, the bottom wrestler must attach his right ear to the right hip of the opponent. A proper finish would then come typically via a "windshield wiper" of the legs of the bottom man, driving the top man to his own left side, approximately 90 degrees clockwise from the direction of the bottom man's spine.

Nogueira attempts to initiate the peek out by pinning the opponent's right arm behind his own neck, while securing a grip on the right wrist with his own left wrist.

Relative to the standard peek out, the Nogueira-style peek out greatly expands the distance the bottom wrestler's head must travel to reach its target. The trapping of the right arm of the opponent by the bottom wrestler is of little use; a good top wrestler doesn't only have his right arm to use to defend the bottom wrestler from reaching his goal---he also has the advantage of "heavy hips", balance, rotational motion with his legs, and gravity.

In the Nogueira-style attack, the top wrestler has precious extra time and distance to prevent the bottom man from getting into a proper takedown or reversal position using the advantages listed above. Rewatch the Zulu clip in slow motion. You will discover that even a grappling neophyte like Zulu would have had time to sprawl and defend Nogueira's finish if he had thought to do so.

Serious question: Is the Nogueira version even legal in collegiate wrestling? It applies the same pressure as a kimura and you can absolutely submit someone from that position.

It's very hard to so casually dismiss the purported effectiveness of a technique used so often by a legend of the sport.

 

[MixMartialFarts]

Short answer, most guys at the UFC level nowadays are better wrestlers then the Pride era guys Nogeria was fighting in those clips. Its a cool move though.

 

[HJ Penn]

So the first fighter with any ground game at all that he tried it against broke his arm. Maybe that's why.

 

[EndlessCritic]

So the first fighter with any ground game at all that he tried it against broke his arm. Maybe that's why.

frank mir is one of the most dangerous submission fighters in mma history. that doesn't invalidate the technique.

 

[Psychojoe86]

For those unfamiliar, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was one the greatest BJJ fighters in MMA history. He had a number of signature moves on the ground, including his triangle, deep half guard, and anaconda choke. But above all, it's possible his coolest signature move was his sitout while maintaining control of the arm.

The classical sitout to complete a takedown (which is itself rarely used in MMA) is seen here being executed by Thiago Tavares against Jason Black



From a traditional wrestling perspective, Tavares executes the technique in a very orthodox fashion by immediately releasing the arm with his left hand. By contrast, Nogueira always maintained control of the arm.

Watch him hit it against Sapp here:



Against Zulu here:



Against Kharitonov here:



And, once and for all, Nogueira fatefully attempted it against Frank Mir in their rematch, which Mir countered by taking the kimura because Nogueira left his right arm exposed.




I am not aware of this move being attempted, let alone executed since Nogueira/Mir 2. The question is why? How can a technique that was used so many times by one of the greatest grapplers in history be completely unused now for over a decade?

I did not know that Big Nog invented that move. Very cool.

Probably a much less effective takedown move in the lower weight classes if I had to guess. At heavyweight, the big guys weight being diverted likely left them vulnerable to big nog's agility advantage on the mat

 

[Hazuki Ryo]

I love threads like that. Thanks TS

 

[EndlessCritic]

I did not know that Big Nog invented that move. Very cool.

Probably a much less effective takedown move in the lower weight classes if I had to guess. At heavyweight, the big guys weight being diverted likely left them vulnerable to big nog's agility advantage on the mat

I'm not sure he "invented" it. But it was clearly one of his signature moves, and one of the only fighters in MMA I've ever seen use it.

 

[teknien]

in wrestling, its a knee slide more than a sit-out... but when he keeps the arm its like a knee slide to a sit-out. typically a sit-out is used as a defensive escape to get to a switch or stand up.

The knee slide is super effective way to finish a take down if your head is on the outside of the leg and your stuck underneath. It's a fundamental wrestling move we teach the kids. Some people call it a peek-around, slide by, among other names.