Should I Give Up on Takedowns, and Pull Guard?

[jack36767]

The biggest problem I see is that a lot off bjj guys “wrestling” is straight spazzing and trying to force dangerous throws or trips and can’t flow and don’t have instructors that can actually teach them how to be more flowing and relaxed about it.

the other big problem is that most bjj coachs, for whatever reason, try to teach level change knee over toe inside steps which are actually Elbert hard and require a good amount of limberness and athleticism. Or advanced throws.

or TLDR: the “takedown instruction” is usually about stuff I wouldn’t have unathletic first year kids do.

Add in certain attitudes and the injuries become self fullfilling prophecy

 

[shunyata]

Judo is brutal.
It does not matter how much breakfall you practice.
Injuries always happen during tachi waza, even the black belts.

I strongly disagree with the bolded sentence.

Proper Ukemi will not eliminate 100% of injuries but it can severely reduce the damage of each fall and significantly reduce the chance of a catastrophic injury.

Falling well matters alot. It's the difference between getting hurt in 1-5 out of a 100 falls and getting hurt in 92 out of 100 falls. It adds up even more over time when you are falling thousands of times.


I completely agree that Judo is brutal. I completely agree that injuries happen.

I vehemently disagree with the idea that proper ukemi training does not reduce frequency of injury in brutal training. It very much does reduce the stress and the injuries. Not to zero, but as much as we can reduce it. Drilling with crash pads is good too for high impacts with higher frequency.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I’m a 41 year old physician who has been training about 9 years pretty consistently. I have long been better at top game than guard - I am fairly stocky and prefer a more incremental game. Most of my training has been starting on the knees with minimal experience in full resistance sparring in takedowns. I have always favored safety when training - and have built my game around that in part - I felt like longevity was key and I enjoy BJJ and want to do it very long term. I have a pressure style and don’t do well in wild fast-reaction positions.

A number of months ago, my gym started sparring from standing. I really enjoyed this - I always wanted to get good at takedowns, not only because it fits with my top heavy style but it has real self defense value and was a new challenge. I quickly found, as expected, that you have to spar hard to improve - and I feel like I made a lot of progress over the months, getting increasingly comfortable with clinch/trip and single leg takedowns, and hitting them regularly in sparring.

However, I had a lot of hard falls - messing up on the ground might get you swept/subbed/passed, but messing up when getting thrown and not falling correctly means you fall on your face. Thinking back I had a lot of near-catastrophies where I landed on my head and could have gotten a spinal injury, or on my shoulder etc.

Last week, I “zoned out” and did something REALLY stupid while falling reflexively (posted with one hand), and suffered a grousome elbow dislocation in training. Completely a boneheaded error...and yet thinking back it could have easily happened earlier any number of times...maybe even something worse.

Soooo...I’m faced with a dilemma when I finally get back to training, probably months from now. On one hand, I really love standing takedown sparring and think it has tremendous value. On the other, I’m not sure I can do it safely...and other than not training my injury impacts my work and even my ability to get dressed at the moment.

What should I do? The grappler I admire most, Bernardo Faria, was a guard puller. Maybe I should be too....it would improve my guard work. But, maybe there is a way to do stand up safely? (Always be ready to fall and focus more on that? Not sure)

Thoughts? Thanks for reading.

You problem is that you need to start reimagining the standup game as "standing BJJ." This means integrating takedowns with BJJ moves like front chokes, backtakes, leglock entries, flying attacks, and guard pulls that lead directly into a sweeping or submission attack. You should also think about how to use your BJJ to counterwrestle, especially stuff like the kimura trap against single legs.

 

[Russky]

There is a way to do that safely, it is called judo. It is very dangerous to let two clueless adults start judo fight without building falling reflexes first. This may work for kids, but not adults.
For adults we start very slow, from ukemi and throws onto crash pads into controlled practice with higher belts. You need to become comfortable with falling during nagekomi practice first, and this alone may take years.

 

[thugpoet]

I see take downs as the same as getting caught in a sub. Don't fight it.

The goal is to not get caught if i get then i let them have it.

 

[dimmyfinster]

Pull guard.

All these people telling you that you need to learn to break fall to get better at takedowns are correct. On the other hand, none of them (probably) are making bank in their jobs as you are. The math of doing hard takedown practice, heel hooks, holding out submissions, and so on is different when you're pulling down 300k or whatever.


Skilled judo is not safe, only somewhat safer than unskilled judo.

If I were making 300k or whatever, and I needed my body to do that, I'd do purely "Rener Gracie keeping it playful jiujitsu"

 

[lechien]

I strongly disagree with the bolded sentence.

Proper Ukemi will not eliminate 100% of injuries but it can severely reduce the damage of each fall and significantly reduce the chance of a catastrophic injury.

Falling well matters alot. It's the difference between getting hurt in 1-5 out of a 100 falls and getting hurt in 92 out of 100 falls. It adds up even more over time when you are falling thousands of times.

Injured judo player: bad ukemi.

Last year at my club, 2 BB got their knees surgery..
One brown belt (BB level) waiting for his surgery.
Blue belt student already training with knee braces.

All the above are also train bjj.

Tachi waza aka stand up judo is brutal.

Bare in mind that one of my purple belt got knee surgery as well, he practise judo but he never blamed judo practise for some reason.

 

[RJ Green]

judo is pain

 

[GoodbyeBlueSky82]

I did a bit of Judo before starting BJJ and I was shocked at disparity of breakfall focus between the two. In Judo, my first day was all ukemi, then it was done every class to warm up, no throws for beginners until they seemed to "get it", and every variety (side, rear, forward) had to be demonstrated for your first belt testing. In BJJ, we do forward rolls (technically not even a breakfall), and we rear breakfall and slap the mats when we go down to shrimp. That's about it. Some guys pick up on it but some guys in my gym, I would be afraid to actually throw from any height like a hip toss or uchi mata.

 

[CFGroup]

I strongly disagree with the bolded sentence.

Proper Ukemi will not eliminate 100% of injuries but it can severely reduce the damage of each fall and significantly reduce the chance of a catastrophic injury.

Falling well matters alot. It's the difference between getting hurt in 1-5 out of a 100 falls and getting hurt in 92 out of 100 falls. It adds up even more over time when you are falling thousands of times.

One of my instructors would do 100 throws before class back in his day and still moves super fast in his late 60's.
I only got to 50 after class but my Ukemi saved me from a million injuries on the mat.

It's the one skill that can save us our whole lives.

 

[DatCutman]

First, you weren't training safely. You need to train at a location with the proper equipment (i.e., you didnt mention if this was on floated mats), proper instruction (learning how to fall), and proper partners (i.e., more skilled than you, so they dont have to hurt you to win).

If you dont have the time/resources to do that though, you have to choose between engaging in this risky behavior (even though it comports with your mental ideals) or only engaging in a style of grappling you can safely do (even though it isnt your top-down "best grappler" style).

Due to some spine issues, I had to give up many aspects of BJJ that I loved to even continue in the sport. I didnt want to, because what i do now doesnt align with what i feel "perfect" grappling consists of, but when I realized pursing perfect grappling was leading to no grappling, it became quite a bit easier to accept my philosophically imperfect grappling.

 

[StanClarker]

I'm new to martial arts (Judo), nonetheless this article strikes me as clickbait. I get that.

The biggest problem I see is that a lot off bjj guys “wrestling” is straight spazzing and trying to force dangerous throws or trips and can’t flow and don’t have instructors that can actually teach them how to be more flowing and relaxed about it.

the other big problem is that most bjj coachs, for whatever reason, try to teach level change knee over toe inside steps which are actually Elbert hard and require a good amount of limberness and athleticism. Or advanced throws.

or TLDR: the “takedown instruction” is usually about stuff I wouldn’t have unathletic first year kids do.

Add in certain attitudes and the injuries become self fullfilling prophecy

I don't understand the BJJ technical s here, could you explain?

I do get the result. The general result by Judo is injury-free practice. I don't feel any risk of injury during Judo class sessions. The art is expressly designed for safe action.

I strongly disagree with the bolded sentence.

Proper Ukemi will not eliminate 100% of injuries but it can severely reduce the damage of each fall and significantly reduce the chance of a catastrophic injury.

Falling well matters alot. It's the difference between getting hurt in 1-5 out of a 100 falls and getting hurt in 92 out of 100 falls. It adds up even more over time when you are falling thousands of times.

Again, I don't experience any injury during breakfalls. They work all the time, if you do them properly.

We're even given the option of practicing them off the mat on the hardwood gym floors. I've done that.

I did a bit of Judo before starting BJJ and I was shocked at disparity of breakfall focus between the two. In Judo, my first day was all ukemi, then it was done every class to warm up, no throws for beginners until they seemed to "get it", and every variety (side, rear, forward) had to be demonstrated for your first belt testing.

This has been the experience in @ my dojo too. The instructors are very religious about running all students through the routines for breakfalls. Generally, we focus on the forward breakfall. Including the rolling version. Piece of cake is how easily I picked it up. Seems to be an intelligent extension of what you should naturally want to do.

In BJJ, we do forward rolls (technically not even a breakfall), and we rear breakfall and slap the mats when we go down to shrimp. That's about it. Some guys pick up on it but some guys in my gym, I would be afraid to actually throw from any height like a hip toss or uchi mata.

BJJ from my perspective is much more physically aggressive. Certain of the takedowns moving to the wrestling moves employing larger strength. There's the first element of increase risk & chance for injury. Second, when strength and force are injected into takedown technique to make it work, there is less of a natural flow to the movement for the uke, & more driving oneself physically to the result.

Don't know if I said that all as clear as possible. BJJ takedowns are more risky by design.

 

[lechien]

Also, is it possible that lot of injuries in Judo are caused due to resisting sparring partner?

I mean no one gonna let you throw them without resistance during sparring.

Also, I try to not spar with BB that cannot throw without strength and "spazziness".

I feel that they can injure me easily.

The ones that I prefer sparring with are the more technical partners. Good timing as well. Don't have to rely on weight too much

 

[tekkenfan]

man fact you are 41 and if you arnt competing heavily i dont see a need personally takedowns are where most injuries happen so whats worth it to you

im someone who thinks everyone should have good takedowns but if eel after certain age and if injuries are a thing then dont work them safety first

 

[tekkenfan]

Take downs are IMO the hardest thing to learn in grappling , at least for me.

I'm not afraid to get thrown at all or anything, I just suck at single,/doubles etc .

i feel with takedowns/wrestling u either gotta be built athletically for it or u need years and years of experience like askren for example guy who isnt gifted much athletically but has so much drilling experience he can make it work for him

the main thing if eel people lack when learning is they second guess a takedown and overly telegraph it

 

[tekkenfan]

Also, is it possible that lot of injuries in Judo are caused due to resisting sparring partner?

I mean no one gonna let you throw them without resistance during sparring.

Also, I try to not spar with BB that cannot throw without strength and "spazziness".

I feel that they can injure me easily.

The ones that I prefer sparring with are the more technical partners. Good timing as well. Don't have to rely on weight too much

mhm thats when the injuries happen when guys are spazzing on feat if i were him id only go live with really experienced guys who wont go hard and hurt them

 

[Kforcer]

Rolling leglocks or standing leglock entries can be tricky for some, but there are a variety of ways to get into them, some which are quite safe and require much less athleticism or wrestling ability than others.

But what I think might be great for you is an exploration of the standing-to-ground Kimura game. Very practical, underutilized and just very effective against wrestlers and really, anyone. It can be very spectacular and dynamic, like say, Karo Parisyan, but you also see guys like Sakuraba utilize it in a much more understated manner where sometimes commentators didn't even notice what he did. Also, its one of the systems of attack which you can see being utilized on video by old-school catch guys, judoka, amateur wrestlers and modern day MMA fighters and grappling competitors; it has stood the test of time as an efficient means of dealing with the standing grappling game.

 

[RJ Green]

Also, is it possible that lot of injuries in Judo are caused due to resisting sparring partner?

Randori heroics are responsible for most injuries for sure. You don't have to be a wet blanket, but it's those split seconds fighting against the kazushi or trying not to land on your back that wreck your shit.

I let/make the white/citrus belts throw me at least 2-3 times before flipping the switch. So much randori is wasted fucking with grips and staring at feet and sticking asses out. Defensive randori is kinda like jerking off, it might make you feel better, but it's hardly satisfying. It's so much more important to learn good posture and committing to attacking. You spend 146 hours per week not doing judo, no sense in wasting the 2 in the dojo also not doing judo.

It's so much better to try and throw and fail spectacularly.

unfortunately, pride gets in the way. people under-rotate, fall on their knees, try to zankaria out of shit, then make pissy faces on the side of the mat the next few weeks because they can't play because they didn't fall good.

like, yeah, you need hard randori too, but not until you're consistently throwing people smoothly.

 

[StanClarker]

like, yeah, you need hard randori too, but not until you're consistently throwing people smoothly.

U must post on MMA sites.

 

[shunyata]

I see take downs as the same as getting caught in a sub. Don't fight it.

The goal is to not get caught if i get then i let them have it.

After a certain point you're correct. But, you should also realize that their are higher levels to it.

If someone gets me full blown airborne my first thought is landing safely, tucking chin, etc.

But I'm thinking pretty fast at that point.

My second thought in the air is can I roll through and sweep safely.

Usually by the time I can ask myself that question, if it was worth considering I'm often already rolling through. If not, you keep preparing for impact.