Tony Ferguson - top 5 lightweight in UFC history?

[Taric]

Barboza's fights against Tony and Khabib were 15 months apart, he was the same fighter.

See, this is why Sherdog drives me insane. You've just stated to me that accomplishment isn't based on a timeline. If a fighter becomes champion later in his career defeating him before that is the exact same thing because "he's the same fighter" in either scenario.

You live in the world of the Highlander and I will not take part of it.

 

[cmw43]

See, this is why Sherdog drives me insane. You've just stated to me that accomplishment isn't based on a timeline. If a fighter becomes champion later in his career defeating him before that is the exact same thing because "he's the same fighter" in either scenario.

You live in the world of the Highlander and I will not take part of it.

Fighters can and do improve. I just don't think the Barboza who fought Khabib was any better than the one who fought Tony.

 

[mkess101]

See, this is why Sherdog drives me insane. You've just stated to me that accomplishment isn't based on a timeline. If a fighter becomes champion later in his career defeating him before he became champion is the same career because "he's the same fighter".

You live in the world of Highlander and I will not take part of it.

What? His point wasn't that it made no difference when they fought Edson but that they fought him only a little over a year apart. Those are two vastly different arguments.

Nobody is arguing that a 2019 win over BJ Penn is the same as a win over him in 2011.

 

[Taric]

What? His point wasn't that it made no difference when they fought Edson but that they fought him only a little over a year apart. Those are two vastly different arguments.

Nobody is arguing that a 2019 win over BJ Penn is the same as a win over him in 2011.

It's the exact same argument. He (and you apparently) are quite literally attempting to give accomplishments to Edson that he had not even accomplished yet.

If neither of you see the absolute absurdity of that statement I really can't help you. Sport does not work that way.

 

[JKS]

It does and BJ is an ATG p4p fighter but his accolades in the LW division are sorta overrated. His best win at LW is Gomi, the other guys like Joe daddy, Florian, Diego, and uno are overrated.

And his win over Gomi was pre-Pride so he didn't even beat Gomi at his best. I always smirk when I read people placing BJ on top of the goat list at Lw. He's not really top 4 IMO. All you gotta do is mention the name Ben Henderson and that pretty kills any chances of BJ being Lw goat. Not even mentioning Khabib, Tony, Edgar yet.

 

[Taric]

And his win over Gomi was pre-Pride so he didn't even beat Gomi at his best.

Gomi was the #2 ranked LW when Penn defeated him.

 

[Ufcmaster]

Tony broke his arm early in the MJ fight, you think MJ really has a chance against him in a rematch now?

That's just MMA math, Cowboy absolutely battered Raging Al but I wouldn't pick him to beat Kevin Lee.

Comparing resume by looking at the opponents is not mma math or maybe not the worst form of it. I think it is pretty logical to compare opponents of both fighters and if they went head to head with eachother even better.

Tony's last three wins in Lee, Pettis and Cowboy are not special to me.
Tony's real last top 5 opponent was RDA. And RDA was coming from a KO loss lol

I just want Tony to face the same level of competition Khabib has faced.

I want Tony to face a good striker with KO power that can shut his light. Pettis and Cowboy are not that. Plus let's be honest they are washed up

I want Tony to face a REAL top 5 killer.

Tony hasn't faced:
- Conrat
- Poirier
- Gaethje
- Khabib



Ps: MJ kicked very hard and Tony blocked with his arm and it got broken. MJ broke Tony's arm fair and square. And according to Tony that happened in the second round. But Tony lost the first round on three judges scorecard already before he supposedly broke that arm.








Khabib Bless

 

[mkess101]

It's the exact same argument. He (and you apparently) are quite literally attempting to give accomplishments to Edson that he had not even accomplished yet.

If neither of you see the absolute absurdity of that statement I really can't help you. Sport does not work that way.

No, what's instead happening is that you are attempting to put hard and fast definitions on something that will always, by definition, have a level of subjectivity to it.

The "accomplishments" you speak of are Barboza beating Pettis (was coming off back to back losses), Melendez, had lost 3 of 4 and never won another fight, finishing his career 1-6 in his last 7 fights overall), and Dariush (best win of the 3 at that time). There's nothing compelling about those 3 wins that would make Edson a significantly better win after them than before. Slightly better? Sure I guess. But not to the point where it would make a huge difference.

That said, I now remember that you basically take the official rankings at face value and without questioning them much (if at all). So any argument you make will be predicated upon the fact that in your eyes those rankings are infallible. Which is preposterous to me, but I guess we're all entitled to look at it however we want.

 

[Strategery]

Nope, not yet. He has to win the belt and defend it.

 

[mkess101]

Comparing resume by looking at the opponents is not mma math or maybe not the worst form of it. I think it is pretty logical to compare opponents of both fighters and if they went head to head with eachother even better.

Tony's last three wins in Lee, Pettis and Cowboy are not special to me.
Tony's real last top 5 opponent was RDA. And RDA was coming from a KO loss lol

I just want Tony to face the same level of competition Khabib has faced.

I want Tony to face a good striker with KO power that can shut his light. Pettis and Cowboy are not that. Plus let's be honest they are washed up

I want Tony to face a REAL top 5 killer.

Tony hasn't faced:
- Conrat
- Poirier
- Gaethje
- Khabib



Ps: MJ kicked very hard and Tony blocked with his arm and it got broken. MJ broke Tony's arm fair and square. And according to Tony that happened in the second round. But Tony lost the first round on three judges scorecard already before he supposedly broke that arm.

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Khabib Bless

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How many times had Wonderboy been KO'd prior to the Pettis fight? Even eating shots from guys like Woodley.

Poirier and Conor both spent much of their careers at 145, someone could say they are good fighters but blown up FW's.

You can nitpick anyone's record if you really want.

 

[TheWave111]

Barboza's fights against Tony and Khabib were 15 months apart, he was the same fighter.

Barboza fought Pettis and Gilbert on the worst skids of their career, they were both on two fight losing streaks and Gil was completely shot, never wont a fight again.

Barboza is 5-5 in his last 10, anyone decent on form wrecks him.

It's like how Khabib fought a highly ranked Michael Johnson who'd lost 2 of his last 3 coming into the Khabib fight and went on to lose most of his fights after that and should probably be cut.

The rankings aren't very objective, you get guys lose fights and hold their place, guys win and don't move up, I think a lot of it is marketing. Iaquinta loses to Khabib and jumped up about 5 places.

How about this?
Tony fought Barbosa who took the fight on a short notice without a camp.
The Barbosa against Khabib a full camp.
And Tony still needed an illegal kick to the head that changed the fight.

 

[GSP1978]

Leon Edward is currently on an 8 fight UFC win streak at the moment... who cares? Does this make him a top 5 WW of all time? If you aren't beating the top fighters of the division consistently, your win streak is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You make a good point. I would argue title defenses mean more than a winning streak, though it is tricky to measure.

 

[JKS]

Gomi was the #2 ranked LW when Penn defeated him.

Gomi was ranked as high as #1 on some rankings. But anyways, point I was making was it was Pre-Pride Gomi in 2003, he was at his best in 2005. But then again, Penn was not at his best either. I had a look and BJ beat Gomi before Hughes and had less than 10 fights. For some reason I thought BJ beat Gomi after he won the WW title and was under the impression he was more developed. They were pretty much at the same stage. Either way I think Penn beats Gomi anytime.

 

[Ufcmaster]

How many times had Wonderboy been KO'd prior to the Pettis fight? Even eating shots from guys like Woodley.

Poirier and Conor both spent much of their careers at 145, someone could say they are good fighters but blown up FW's.

You can nitpick anyone's record if you really want.

Blown up FW's beat pettis and cowboy
I think Al is a blown up FW top and he beat lee twice now

Heck blown up FW MJ beat Tony himself lol



Let's not talk about blown up FW's. It will not look good on Tony.


Ps: Pettis is washed man. You keep bringing up the wonderboy miracle but leave out the Diaz and CDF fights right after. Plus the skid he was on after RDA beat his ass and stole his Mojo. Lost 3 fights in a row then went to 145 and beat Aloe Vera and lost the interim to Holloway thereafter.


Pettis lost to all these fighters before he faced Tony:

- RDA
- Eddie
- Barboza
- Holloway
- Poirier


Stop hyping up the pettis win for Tony. Pettis is not even ranked at LW anymore. He's done. Bellator awaits him and same goes for cowboy




Khabib Bless

 

[BForrester]

How can you be top 5 all time if you've never held a belt?!?

 

[Hannibal Lector]

If I lean towards skull tito is the goat

Fuck me stupid autocorrect!!!

 

[GSP1978]

How can you be top 5 all time if you've never held a belt?!?

He did win an interim belt against Lee. But the general argument is his 12 victories in a row.

Consider this - if Khabib and Tony eventually fight, and Khabib wins. Then Khabib either fights GSP or Conor or Gathje or someone else, and Tony never wins a UFC belt -is he still top 5?

 

[1moretime!]

Tony is beating the top fighters of the division, his top wins are very comparable to Khabibs.

Khabibs top wins:

• Dos Anjos (former champ)
• Barboza
• Connor (former champ)
• Poirier
• Iaquinta

Tony's top wins:

• Dos Anjos (former champ)
• Barboza
• Pettis (former champ)
• Cowboy
• Kevin Lee

It's pretty much neck and neck really, also Tony finished 4 of those guys.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Absolutely he is.
If you go on a streak as he has in the most stacked division in the UFC, you're one of the best the division has ever seen.

I have no problem saying that the winner of Khabib vs. Ferg is the greatest LW all time.

It’s not all about defending the title. Ferg has some great wins and usually wins via finish after drowning his opponent. Lightweight is the hardest division to go on a long streak.

Not too different from how I feel about it. In general I think title wins are somewhat overrated while streaks get underrated. Pettis won and defended the belt but Tony has more wins in his current win streak than Pettis has in his entire UFC career and also beat him head to head so despite having fewer title wins his resume is clearly better.

Same with a lot of other LW champs; BJ's championship win streak at LW was 5(excluding loss to GSP at WW), Frankie's was 6(excluding draw with Maynard), and Bendo's was 7. Tony's current win streak at LW is 12 and includes 6 fighters in the top ten(Thomson, Barboza, RDA, Lee, Pettis, Cerrone) and he has finished most of the guys in his win streak.

Add to that the fact that when talking about the GOAT at LW two of the top names, Gomi and Aoki, didn't fight in the UFC at their primes and its absolutely an uncontroversial statement to claim that Tony is one of the top 5 best LWs in UFC history. Really its him and Khabib right now but there's an argument for BJ Penn in the mix within the top 3. Everybody else ain't close.

 

[Islam Imamate]

double post.