Best Karate Ruleset Transition to MMA

[destroyer4147]

Comparing:

- Pointfighting: Head punches, emphasis on speed and timing, but semi/no-contact, non-continuous, no low kick

- Kyokushin: No head punches, less emphasis on speed on timing, but full-contact, continuous, and have low kick

Which ruleset translates better to MMA?

 

[Hotora86]

BEST:
Kudo - pretty much MMA in a gi and helmet. Most strikes allowed, most throws allowed, most subs allowed. Plus motherfucking HEADBUTTS!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kūdō
http://www.ku-do.com/eng/kudo/rule/pdf/kudo_RuleBook.pdf
http://www.ku-do.com/eng/kudo/rule/pdf/kudo_RuleBook_HANSOKU.pdf



VERY GOOD:
Shidokan - known as the "Triathlon of Martial arts", Shidokan tournaments encompass consecutive Kyokushin-based knockdown karate, Muay Thai / kickboxing and grappling rounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shidōkan_Karate
https://shidokanhongkong.weebly.com/the-shidokan-program.html



TLDR: Mixed rules are objectively (and statistically) best for the transition. See my post for stats: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/page-25#post-163462680

 

[AndyMaBobs]

If I am being completely realistic here - I know we all like kyokushin and the like because of how it's so tough and they punch each other in the spleen etc. but historically speaking in MMA the karate fighters who have had the most success in MMA have been point based fighters from Shotokan or American Karate etc.

The two best karate fighters in the sport (all time) are Machida and Kyoji Horiguchi and they both come from Japanese point karate backgrounds - it teaches you to move in and out of danger from quite a long distance that is more akin to the distance that MMA is fought from - rather than kyokushin where they are chest to chest, spleen punching and leg kicking, fighting at that distance gets you taken down in MMA.

I'll be interested to see what @Hotora86 makes of my post.

 

[Tayski]

It depends more on the person and how they can adapt to other rulesets than the ruleset they come from itself. Both rulesets have advantages and disadvantages for a transition to MMA.

 

[Tayski]

The two best karate fighters in the sport (all time) are Machida and Kyoji Horiguchi and they both come from Japanese point karate backgrounds

I think you might have forgotten GSP who's by far a more accomplished MMA fighter than the other 2 you mentioned, and he comes from Kyokushin Karate.
It's also because he could adapt very well and master the other arts that he needed for MMA such as BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing etc.

 

[Hotora86]

If I am being completely realistic here - I know we all like kyokushin and the like because of how it's so tough and they punch each other in the spleen etc. but historically speaking in MMA the karate fighters who have had the most success in MMA have been point based fighters from Shotokan or American Karate etc.

The two best karate fighters in the sport (all time) are Machida and Kyoji Horiguchi and they both come from Japanese point karate backgrounds - it teaches you to move in and out of danger from quite a long distance that is more akin to the distance that MMA is fought from - rather than kyokushin where they are chest to chest, spleen punching and leg kicking, fighting at that distance gets you taken down in MMA.

I'll be interested to see what @Hotora86 makes of my post.

Thanks for the tag. Of course I'm already here.

It's an interesting point. You may perhaps be surprised if I tell you that I was on the Kyokushin bandwagon for quite some time after I gained experience in more full-contact arts. The lack of hard sparring in Shotokan really stood out to me then and, as much as it hurt my pride, I had to admit that most of my Shotokan peers would get their asses handed to them in knockdown fights. In kickboxing and MMA rules things get more complicated though - managing distance, timing and speed become more important and can equal out the lack of "toughness" sometimes.

As I collected data on Karate fighters in MMA throughout the years I noticed that an excellent Shotokan guy with solid TDD can often keep winning UDs with his superior movement (until he faces an excellent wrestler), while an excellent Kyokushin guy with solid TDD will usually KO or be KOd - which is great for views but not great for his record or longevity. (see Marcin Prachnio for example)

I'm sure that Kyokushin will remain the top represented Karate style in MMA simply due to their combat-ready mentality but it always takes Kyokushin guys a lot of cross-training to really achieve greatness - up to a point when their Kyokushin base becomes unrecognizable. (see GSP)

Ultimately I think that hybrid Karate styles are the best base for an MMA transition but, to my disappointment, there are very few Kudo or Shidokan guys coming to MMA and the ones already present aren't really doing that well. I guess we need to wait for the national champs and top dogs to truly shine.

Now I'd like to hear from @shinkyoku and @Azam on this topic.

 

[Hotora86]

It depends more on the person and how they can adapt to other rulesets than the ruleset they come from itself. Both rulesets have advantages and disadvantages for a transition to MMA.

Damn, both myself and @AndyMaBobs have written fucking essays here and Tayski just drops the one and only true TLDR answer.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I think you might have forgotten GSP who's by far a more accomplished MMA fighter than the other 2 you mentioned, and he comes from Kyokushin Karate.
It's also because he could adapt very well and master the other arts that he needed for MMA such as BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing etc.

Machida has the better wins in an (at the time) more competitive division, I thought of GSP and then thought 'nah, not really'. He is a better representative for MMA as whole (as you say), being well rounded and good at everything, than he is for the efficiency of kyokushin style karate in MMA - Tarec Saffiedene would be a better example.

But yeah, it does depend on who can adapt their style better, but typically speaking so far it's mostly been point guys

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Thanks for the tag. Of course I'm already here.

It's an interesting point. You may perhaps be surprised if I tell you that I was on the Kyokushin bandwagon for quite some time after I gained experience in more full-contact arts. The lack of hard sparring in Shotokan really stood out to me then and, as much as it hurt my pride, I had to admit that most of my Shotokan peers would get their asses handed to them in knockdown fights. In kickboxing and MMA rules things get more complicated though - managing distance, timing and speed become more important and can equal out the lack of "toughness" sometimes.

As I collected data on Karate fighters in MMA throughout the years I noticed that an excellent Shotokan guy with solid TDD can often keep winning UDs with his superior movement (until he faces an excellent wrestler), while an excellent Kyokushin guy with solid TDD will usually KO or be KOd - which is great for views but not great for his record or longevity. (see Marcin Prachnio for example)

I'm sure that Kyokushin will remain the top represented Karate style in MMA simply due to their combat-ready mentality but it always takes Kyokushin guys a lot of cross-training to really achieve greatness - up to a point when their Kyokushin base becomes unrecognizable. (see GSP)

Ultimately I think that hybrid Karate styles are the best base for an MMA transition but, to my disappointment, there are very few Kudo or Shidokan guys coming to MMA and the ones already present aren't really doing that well. I guess we need to wait for the national champs and top dogs to truly shine.

Now I'd like to hear from @shinkyoku and @Azam on this topic.

Yeah, I don't think the lack of hard sparring in styles like shotokan actually matter, because what matters is the quality of sparring they get in MMA - if they go from a point based in and out style and then apply that to hard sparring - they seem to do quite well - GSP knows kyokushin yes, but his career was a jab and a double leg, in think kyokushin was more the venue that got him into martial arts and most importantly got him moving and confident and as he puts it, developed his timing, more so than it is the martial art that made him successful in the cage

 

[Hotora86]

Yeah, I don't think the lack of hard sparring in styles like shotokan actually matter, because what matters is the quality of sparring they get in MMA - if they go from a point based in and out style and then apply that to hard sparring - they seem to do quite well - GSP knows kyokushin yes, but his career was a jab and a double leg, in think kyokushin was more the venue that got him into martial arts and most importantly got him moving and confident and as he puts it, developed his timing, more so than it is the martial art that made him successful in the cage

Allow me to expand on this. Hard sparring (meaning full-contact sparring) definitely matters but the learning curve is real steep - once you understand how to deliver and defend power shots you're good to go. Another big thing that Shotokan guys need to un-learn tho (and this may take longer) is pausing after every strike or combo. Even Machida would suffer from this sometimes. The continuous nature of MMA vs the strike-stop tempo in point-kumite is a huge deal IMO. A Shotokan guy can learn to pivot or disengage quickly of course but this habit can really bite you in the ass in the pocket or in the later rounds when you're tired.

 

[Tayski]

Machida has the better wins in an (at the time) more competitive division, I thought of GSP and then thought 'nah, not really'. He is a better representative for MMA as whole (as you say), being well rounded and good at everything, than he is for the efficiency of kyokushin style karate in MMA - Tarec Saffiedene would be a better example

That's because just like many people you think of Karate as that bouncy in and out movement typical of the traditional styles of Karate, which is a lot more distinctive to the casual eye than Kyokushin which can come across as some form of Kickboxing. The thing is Machida's style got exposed and after that he was losing as much as he was winning, he never managed to adapt and improve his style.

 

[Hotora86]

That's because just like many people you think of Karate as that bouncy in and out movement typical of the traditional styles of Karate, which is a lot more distinctive to the casual eye than Kyokushin which can come across as some form of Kickboxing. The thing is Machida's style got exposed and after that he was losing as much as he was winning, he never managed to adapt and improve his style.

I somewhat agree with the first part of your post and strongly disagree with the bold part. Aged 40+ and 4-2 in his last 6 with the last 2 losses being close split decisions vs top dogs (Davis, Moose) is not "exposed" by any stretch of the imagination!

Machida's style got a bit "stale" but it was still working most of the time.

 

[Azam]

I think you might have forgotten GSP who's by far a more accomplished MMA fighter than the other 2 you mentioned, and he comes from Kyokushin Karate.
It's also because he could adapt very well and master the other arts that he needed for MMA such as BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing etc.

GSP also cross trained in point fighting karate too. There's footage of him training with Canadian national team members (if i recall).

If I played devils advocate for a second - you can argue that GSP's success stemmed heavily from his wrestling ability/timing and his boxing moreso than his kyokushin.

I feel like it would be a harder thing to say with Machida, Horiguchi or others.

I'd also say that there are significantly more successful point fighters in MMA. In kickboxing or MT it's the other way round.

Of course I'm not saying one is better than the other - more that i feel one seems to empirically adapt fighters to MMA better.

 

[Azam]

Thanks for the tag. Of course I'm already here.

It's an interesting point. You may perhaps be surprised if I tell you that I was on the Kyokushin bandwagon for quite some time after I gained experience in more full-contact arts. The lack of hard sparring in Shotokan really stood out to me then and, as much as it hurt my pride, I had to admit that most of my Shotokan peers would get their asses handed to them in knockdown fights. In kickboxing and MMA rules things get more complicated though - managing distance, timing and speed become more important and can equal out the lack of "toughness" sometimes.

As I collected data on Karate fighters in MMA throughout the years I noticed that an excellent Shotokan guy with solid TDD can often keep winning UDs with his superior movement (until he faces an excellent wrestler), while an excellent Kyokushin guy with solid TDD will usually KO or be KOd - which is great for views but not great for his record or longevity. (see Marcin Prachnio for example)

I'm sure that Kyokushin will remain the top represented Karate style in MMA simply due to their combat-ready mentality but it always takes Kyokushin guys a lot of cross-training to really achieve greatness - up to a point when their Kyokushin base becomes unrecognizable. (see GSP)

Ultimately I think that hybrid Karate styles are the best base for an MMA transition but, to my disappointment, there are very few Kudo or Shidokan guys coming to MMA and the ones already present aren't really doing that well. I guess we need to wait for the national champs and top dogs to truly shine.

Now I'd like to hear from @shinkyoku and @Azam on this topic.

I don't think your the only one either. In fact I came to same assumption as you after going through your list and then trying to work out why that was that guys from point fighting karate backgrounds seemed to do better.

Like @AndyMaBobs said the distance transfers better for point fighters and I think thats a huge reason why - on top of the familiarity many have when it comes to punching someone in the face or avoid being punched in the face.

GSP is a really a combination of many things and yes I agree it's hard to see his kyokushin base but I don't doubt that it is there with the toughness, spirit and sense of discipline or executing a gameplan. Again those are also significant factors in how well an athlete can perform and if his sense of discipline was instilled doing kyokushin karate (like I recall him saying) - then it's quite an instrumental part in his success.

There are a lot of kudo fighters that are into pro MMA - but they're more on the Russian circuit from what I know.

 

[Azam]

Machida has the better wins in an (at the time) more competitive division, I thought of GSP and then thought 'nah, not really'. He is a better representative for MMA as whole (as you say), being well rounded and good at everything, than he is for the efficiency of kyokushin style karate in MMA - Tarec Saffiedene would be a better example.

But yeah, it does depend on who can adapt their style better, but typically speaking so far it's mostly been point guys

I actually think GSP's wins are more impressive than Machida's tbh. I feel like Horiguchi if he was in the UFC could be the flyweight or bantamweight champ - had he stayed.

His only loss was to Mighty Mouse in the UFC - but he was young at the time. I genuinely think he'd have been champ or right up there with the best had he stayed.

But I do think there is a litany of successful point fighters in MMA than there are for Kyokushin.

Like I remember the days of Marius Zaromskis....

Meanwhile for successful kyokushin fighters you have to go back to Bas Rutten or further back.

I mean I've been checking the MMA scene in Japan and there are a lot of great point fighting karate prospects that will probably be big names in future.

 

[Hotora86]

There are a lot of kudo fighters that are into pro MMA - but they're more on the Russian circuit from what I know.

I only know of 2: Adam and Khusein Khaliev

 

[Azam]

That's because just like many people you think of Karate as that bouncy in and out movement typical of the traditional styles of Karate, which is a lot more distinctive to the casual eye than Kyokushin which can come across as some form of Kickboxing. The thing is Machida's style got exposed and after that he was losing as much as he was winning, he never managed to adapt and improve his style.

Machida's issue was more his age, dropping down to a more competitive middle weight division and not being as physically athletic as some of the guys he was facing.

There is also maybe PEDs involved too...who knows.

I don't think he got exposed though since he was still winning fights - just couldn't beat the top tier at middleweight.

 

[Hotora86]

There is also maybe PEDs involved too...who knows.

 

[Tayski]

I somewhat agree with the first part of your post and strongly disagree with the bold part. Aged 40+ and 4-2 in his last 6 with the last 2 losses being close split decisions vs top dogs (Davis, Moose) is not "exposed" by any stretch of the imagination!

Machida's style got a bit "stale" but it was still working most of the time.

He went 10-10 after his clean sweep to becoming a champ.

 

[Tayski]

I actually think GSP's wins are more impressive than Machida's tbh. I feel like Horiguchi if he was in the UFC could be the flyweight or bantamweight champ - had he stayed.

His only loss was to Mighty Mouse in the UFC - but he was young at the time. I genuinely think he'd have been champ or right up there with the best had he stayed.

But I do think there is a litany of successful point fighters in MMA than there are for Kyokushin.

Like I remember the days of Marius Zaromskis....

Meanwhile for successful kyokushin fighters you have to go back to Bas Rutten or further back.

I mean I've been checking the MMA scene in Japan and there are a lot of great point fighting karate prospects that will probably be big names in future.

Sounds to me like you agree with what I said above, GSP was better than them at adapting to MMA and making his style more complete with heavy cross training.