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I did say brat, brat, i.e. 6PAT
Best Karate Ruleset Transition to MMA
- Thread starter destroyer4147
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I did say brat, brat, i.e. 6PAT
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Это "брат".
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KBE how can we explain this part away?
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Generally, I think people would be surprised at how good a fighter point based karate fighters would be. Not being able to cut it in MMA or kickboxing at elite levels is one thing, but Rafael Aghayev or Angelo Crescenzo would kick the shit out of pretty much everyone on this forum. They play the point game, that doesn't mean they can't fight
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IKO-1 I believe is the only Kyokushin organization that had some rule revisions, notably:
- sweep = waza-ari
- land a high kick + "zanshin" pose = waza-ari
where 2 waza-ari = ippon = victory
Therefore, you can pretty much win your match by sweeping your opponent twice, or landing two high kicks, or one of each.
The new rules have been criticized by many who feel this was a step toward being more "point-like." If this makes IKO-1 fighters more "pointlike" than the rest of their Kyokushin peers, could that give them a higher likehood of success in MMA than the remaining Kyokushin fighters who haven't adopted the new rules?
- sweep = waza-ari
- land a high kick + "zanshin" pose = waza-ari
where 2 waza-ari = ippon = victory
Therefore, you can pretty much win your match by sweeping your opponent twice, or landing two high kicks, or one of each.
The new rules have been criticized by many who feel this was a step toward being more "point-like." If this makes IKO-1 fighters more "pointlike" than the rest of their Kyokushin peers, could that give them a higher likehood of success in MMA than the remaining Kyokushin fighters who haven't adopted the new rules?
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IMO any point fighter with a win in Karate Combat would kick the shit out of most on this forum. I think it's the perfect proving ground for them and a possible entry point to MMA.
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You go take part and win thenyup
although karate combat still sucks
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Disagree with that. Some of these guys are legit AF.yup
although karate combat still sucks
But the best ones obviously cross train....
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Me? Explain what? I am not sure what these stats are, to be precise.
And regardless of stats, I trust my eyes and experience. Shotokan is not a practical style and I know that it is inadequate striking base for actual fighting. Even at the highest level, pure shotokan looks like pure shit. Extremely fast but since it is limited contact ir means horseshit.
And BTW, not all point karate is shotokan. There is a certain narrative ITT to try and merge both notions but that is wrong.
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Interesting... so Karate Combat, which is pretty much full-contact Shotokan, is legit. Non-Shotokan point karate is also legit. But Shotokan itself is still shit. How does that work?
Not trying to out-argue you with eristics, just genuinely curious where you think the key differentiators lie. Obviously it has to be the full-contact aspect (and I do agree with that) but what else is there that makes non-Shotokan point karate legit?
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Yes indeed Karate Combat is very legit. I am not saying that all point karate ex shotokan are legit, though. Many of them are also shit, obviously.
The problem with shotokan is its emphasis on unrealistic movements and kata that are far too removed from real combat movements (the whole retracting the fists to the hip thing, all the blocks which look like a caticature of what an actual block may look like, the weird stances, etc.) and yes the focus on limited contact grooms bad habits like punching single punches with no power and off balance. I see this all the time shotokan footage from the top level. Oh also, a clear tendency to have one's torso pulled backwards. I just don't know why anyone still thinks all this stuff is a good idea in 2021 and why anyone would chose that over boxing /KB.
The line I draw between point karate and shotokan is that I think there are styles out there that train for points BUT with proper fundamentals. It's karate but no bullshit karate. Like american karate / which is not that far away from shiny pants or savate. Not the best style for full contact in a ring but still legit.
Shotokan is a relic from the 70's or whatever. The people that are successful with it in full contact situations are successful not because of it but despite it, and invariably cross train.
If you mean difference for example there: to teach kime on makiwara or on makiwara and a heavy bag in manner like boxers are taught.
Stoppage moments are .........different.
I do not agree that shotokan is ineffective at all. This does have a lot of flaws but blocks in general are damaging, straight punches to middle section might be mhmm and some defense vs middle section and high kicks etc might be tautght with a glance.
I do not consider shotokan as ideal but to call this totally ineffective I do not agree.
Ofc they even if did not had any combat sport training with this alone are mhmm, considerably more dangerous than average ppl in their size.
Stoppage moments are .........different.
I do not agree that shotokan is ineffective at all. This does have a lot of flaws but blocks in general are damaging, straight punches to middle section might be mhmm and some defense vs middle section and high kicks etc might be tautght with a glance.
I do not consider shotokan as ideal but to call this totally ineffective I do not agree.
Top level ( I do not mean only top 3 in the world etc alike but even top 30 - top 50 too ) point karatekas does have good fitness and conditioning, S/C levels and usually in general they are very strong for their size. Very low body fat % and trained muscles and bodies.
Ofc they even if did not had any combat sport training with this alone are mhmm, considerably more dangerous than average ppl in their size.
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There is Shotokan and Shotokan though. JKA might be a relic but it has decent standards. WKF on the other hand which is more "modern" is really bad IMO.
Point fighting karate is not shotokan.
In- out to get scoring is not shotokan or karate at all.
Karates usually does have flowchart: if opponent is hurt > go and asap use this advantage.
Like for shotokan this from idea might be more close to Andre Bertel karate than WKF rules for fighting.
Something like this.
This is like if you comapare kick light KB or point boxing sparring vs fight under K-1 rules, MMA rules or pro boxing title fight.
Aim is different here. Rules make styles.
In- out to get scoring is not shotokan or karate at all.
Karates usually does have flowchart: if opponent is hurt > go and asap use this advantage.
Like for shotokan this from idea might be more close to Andre Bertel karate than WKF rules for fighting.
Something like this.
This is like if you comapare kick light KB or point boxing sparring vs fight under K-1 rules, MMA rules or pro boxing title fight.
Aim is different here. Rules make styles.
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Shotokan is the most widespread style of karate in Wrstern Europe btw and I have never, ever seen a school that was legit. Systematically TMA kata shit for children and soccer moms.
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I think the organisation and rules suck, got nothing against the fighters!
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I like the production value. Cute chicks in the fake crowd in digital post apocalyptic trance parties? Fuck I am in.
Indeed the rules are quite restrictive but they need to find their spot between mma, kb, mt, shootfighting, etc.
BTW all the fighters I have seen so far are shotokan or ryu stuff based. Which ones are the kudo fighters, anyone?
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Shame to hear. Kids are great for business tho, that's the sad reality.
Oh, and just to make things even more complicated, we now have WUKF Professional, which is full-contact point-fighting, arguing for a "middle way" between WKF and Karate Combat. The idea is pretty good IMO, sorta makes it like old school point Karate from the 70s where the rules said "light contact" but there were KOs left and right with barely any penalties for excessive contact!
The downside of WUKF Pro so far is that it's not popular at all and the talent pool is super shallow.
