BJJ and strokes

[Grassshoppa]

I think it's time I stepped forward on this. I would like to request the mods sticky this thread for reasons of awareness and safety. At first, my intention in posting this was to bring awareness. Now, I feel it's important to share my story in the hope that it never happens to someone else, especially someone who might be a father and husband. About four years ago I suffered a stroke from a choke. One night I was put in a head-arm choke. I don't remember a lot because the stroke killed 30 percent of my brain. I do remember that night when I got home my neck and head hurt. One week later the stroke hit. I won't go into too many details, partly because I don't remember much and partly because I have PTSD from the stroke and thinking about it sometimes causes flashbacks that I don't like to experience again. When the stroke hit I had a horrific feeling. It was a very scary loss of control and tunnel like experience with the onset of terrifying vertigo. There was a moment in which I felt like I passed through the line between life and death. A brief skip over of the line of death and back into life. I thought of my wife and young son. I thought I was in the moment of death. The room flipped sideways and I immediately had massive vomiting. Fortunately, I could still talk. I couldn't stand and basically laid face down with uncontrollable vomiting until paramedics arrived.

I was transported to a hospital where I continued to vomit along the way. At this point, it's all a blur unless I really try to remember details. I was pumped full of morphine and remained in the hospital for days. I do remember one time someone came in and held up a page with some people on it and asked me what they were doing. Because I had previously worked in a hospital I said to them, "Is this a stroke test?" I think they said yes. I would wake up in the hospital, complain my head hurt, and they would dose me up with more morphine and back to sleep I went. Thanks to God I had no permanent physical disabilities but the inner mental and emotional damage has been very hard and something I continue to struggle with this day. The stroke left with me things I never really thought existed before such as de-realization, anxiety, PTSD, and a host of other inner anguish. I consider myself lucky given that others who have suffered strokes are left without use of an arm, difficulty talking, can't walk, etc.

I should have shared this a long time ago. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't. Perhaps embarrassment, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps for not wanting to remember it. I share it now because I do not want this to happen to you. With every ounce of my core, I say this, you do not want to have a stroke. I could have died and left my wife and young son all because of unawareness of the potential dangers of a choke from a sport. I consider it no different than awareness of CTE in other contact sports, such as football. I could have been left paralyzed, unable to talk, walk, work, or feed myself. I hope this gives you pause to think and consider how you train. Perhaps you don't train with chokes anymore. Maybe you train with them being loosely applied and no fighting against them or hard application. Whatever you do, please take this awareness into account and make a choice that is best for you, your family, friends, and those that care about you. Share these stories with your gym owner, coaches, training partners, everyone you can. It might just save someone's life and I certainly hope it might save yours.

 

[Solidus Snake]

I think it's time I stepped forward on this. I would like to request the mods sticky this thread for reasons of awareness and safety. At first, my intention in posting this was to bring awareness. Now, I feel it's important to share my story in the hope that it never happens to someone else, especially someone who might be a father and husband. About four years ago I suffered a stroke from a choke. One night I was put in a head-arm choke. I don't remember a lot because the stroke killed 30 percent of my brain. I do remember that night when I got home my neck and head hurt. One week later the stroke hit. I won't go into too many details, partly because I don't remember much and partly because I have PTSD from the stroke and thinking about it sometimes causes flashbacks that I don't like to experience again. When the stroke hit I had a horrific feeling. It was a very scary loss of control and tunnel like experience with the onset of terrifying vertigo. There was a moment in which I felt like I passed through the line between life and death. A brief skip over of the line of death and back into life. I thought of my wife and young son. I thought I was in the moment of death. The room flipped sideways and I immediately had massive vomiting. Fortunately, I could still talk. I couldn't stand and basically laid face down with uncontrollable vomiting until paramedics arrived.

I was transported to a hospital where I continued to vomit along the way. At this point, it's all a blur unless I really try to remember details. I was pumped full of morphine and remained in the hospital for days. I do remember one time someone came in and held up a page with some people on it and asked me what they were doing. Because I had previously worked in a hospital I said to them, "Is this a stroke test?" I think they said yes. I would wake up in the hospital, complain my head hurt, and they would dose me up with more morphine and back to sleep I went. Thanks to God I had no permanent physical disabilities but the inner mental and emotional damage has been very hard and something I continue to struggle with this day. The stroke left with me things I never really thought existed before such as de-realization, anxiety, PTSD, and a host of other inner anguish. I consider myself lucky given that others who have suffered strokes are left without use of an arm, difficulty talking, can't walk, etc.

I should have shared this a long time ago. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't. Perhaps embarrassment, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps for not wanting to remember it. I share it now because I do not want this to happen to you. With every ounce of my core, I say this, you do not want to have a stroke. I could have died and left my wife and young son all because of unawareness of the potential dangers of a choke from a sport. I consider it no different than awareness of CTE in other contact sports, such as football. I could have been left paralyzed, unable to talk, walk, work, or feed myself. I hope this gives you pause to think and consider how you train. Perhaps you don't train with chokes anymore. Maybe you train with them being loosely applied and no fighting against them or hard application. Whatever you do, please take this awareness into account and make a choice that is best for you, your family, friends, and those that care about you. Share these stories with your gym owner, coaches, training partners, everyone you can. It might just save someone's life and I certainly hope it might save yours.

Damn that completely sucks man. I can relate on some level since the blood clot problem I had many years ago in my calf left me a lot of psychological problems and it goes without saying that it wasn't remotely bad or terrifying as a stroke, so it must be some heavy shit you are dealing with. But I'm glad you made it out without severe physical consequences, in the end that's the most important one.

Of course there are much more important things in life than combat sports, especially so if you have a family that needs you. If I'll go back after all this pandemic shit (unrelated to your story, I have less and less drive to the idea any new day that comes) I'll probably tap at the tiniest pressure or just at the simple hold.

 

[Grassshoppa]

Damn that completely sucks man. I can relate on some level since the blood clot problem I had many years ago in my calf left me a lot of psychological problems and it goes without saying that it wasn't remotely bad or terrifying as a stroke, so it must be some heavy shit you are dealing with. But I'm glad you made it out without severe physical consequences, in the end that's the most important one.

Of course there are much more important things in life than combat sports, especially so if you have a family that needs you. If I'll go back after all this pandemic shit (unrelated to your story, I have less and less drive to the idea any new day that comes) I'll probably tap at the tiniest pressure or just at the simple hold.

Thank you. I am good and am able to deal with the inner effects. They still come but I understand what they are and how to deal with them. I remind myself it's better than being paralyzed, unable to talk, not able to feed myself, etc. Plus, my wife is very supportive. I also think the stroke gave me a much stronger relationship with God which I am very grateful for. It's strange when people say something bad was the best thing that ever happened to them. When I first had the stroke I Googled "BJJ and stroke" and there was only one or two articles I think. Now, when you Google it there are a lot of articles as well as people making blogs and groups about it. It definitely seems to be gaining traction and awareness in the community. I think what really prompted me to post my story was the photo in the most recent article I posted. The one of the dad and his son followed by the dad in the hospital bed. I just don't want that to happen to anyone because it still brings me to tears this day if I would have died or not been able to provide for my young son because I was disabled and no longer able to work all because of a hobby. I think if we have the chance to save just one person from permanent disability or death then we should make every effort to do so.

As a side note, I'm none of the people I posted and haven't written any articles. I did reach out to Sean Entin and he was kind enough to talk with me on the phone. Really great guy. One day I might reach out to others who are doing the video stories, blogs, etc. to add to the collection of stories and further support the much needed awareness.

 

[kjg1672]

Thanks for posting all this. This is going to take me awhile to process. Right now, after 13 years of BJJ, I feel fortunate I’m as healthy as I am.

QUOTE="Grassshoppa, post: 162817470, member: 262190"]Thank you. I am good and am able to deal with the inner effects. They still come but I understand what they are and how to deal with them. I remind myself it's better than being paralyzed, unable to talk, not able to feed myself, etc. Plus, my wife is very supportive. I also think the stroke gave me a much stronger relationship with God which I am very grateful for. It's strange when people say something bad was the best thing that ever happened to them. When I first had the stroke I Googled "BJJ and stroke" and there was only one or two articles I think. Now, when you Google it there are a lot of articles as well as people making blogs and groups about it. It definitely seems to be gaining traction and awareness in the community. I think what really prompted me to post my story was the photo in the most recent article I posted. The one of the dad and his son followed by the dad in the hospital bed. I just don't want that to happen to anyone because it still brings me to tears this day if I would have died or not been able to provide for my young son because I was disabled and no longer able to work all because of a hobby. I think if we have the chance to save just one person from permanent disability or death then we should make every effort to do so.

As a side note, I'm none of the people I posted and haven't written any articles. I did reach out to Sean Entin and he was kind enough to talk with me on the phone. Really great guy. One day I might reach out to others who are doing the video stories, blogs, etc. to add to the collection of stories and further support the much needed awareness.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Grassshoppa]

Since this has been on my mind lately I did some more Googling and Chris Martin seems to have the most collected videos in one space: https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisMartinbizjitsu/videos

Here are two that hit home for me because it reminds me how God blessed lucky I was to survive with only mental and emotional damage. I highly encourage watching these two videos. The man in the video was an attorney, owned his own law firm, limited movement in left arm/left leg, and was unable to work at the time of the video.

 

[Kforcer]

One lesson I draw from this is to be careful of training partners who are cavalier about the safety of others. I think all too many of us know such people.

 

[Justin-Grips&Growls]

That is a super scary experience. I'm surprised there isn't more talk about it, which makes me feel like maybe it is really rare. Hopefully, it's some freak occurrence, I really don't want to stop using darce chokes, they exist everywhere.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

That is a super scary experience. I'm surprised there isn't more talk about it, which makes me feel like maybe it is really rare. Hopefully, it's some freak occurrence, I really don't want to stop using darce chokes, they exist everywhere.

It isnt.
Studies on chokes have been done in Judo (for Olympic sport safety requirements) and has been known for some decades that chokes cause harm to the brain.

Why you haven't heard about that, is because science in BJJ is still at its infancy.

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

Man I'm glad you are fine from a physical standpoint and really hope you will get over the psychological problems you are facing, I wish you the best and want to thank you for sharing your experience in order those things don't happen anymore, or at least happen less often.

I really think there is a problem of ignorance among most combat sports practitioners. I live in Europe where it's even worse because we are at least 20 years behind Americans when it comes to new combat sports such as Bjj and MMA, as far as technical knowledge goes (the first bjj gym in my area opened in 2016, and the instructor was a fresh purple belt) or knowledge around the combat sport (injuries etc., in a nutshelle, all the scientific knowledge).
For instance, while it seems that many Americans (or maybe it's only the guys on Sherdog) are aware now of the risk of concussions and cte in striking sports, the vast majority of my kickboxing training partners still think bruises on the brain are like bruises on the shins, and only swear by hard sparring (and you will pass off as a pussy if you ask them to tune it down).
Same thing goes for this particular issue you are pointing out. All of my training partners and my instructor think getting choked out is completely safe and does no greater harm than taking a nap. In fact, our instructor tells us to tap super fast from joint locks, but that we can be a lil tougher when it comes to strangles. So the general tendency I have observed is that martial artists tend to be super afraid by spectacular injuries (who suck but aren't actually that bad, like getting your arm broken in bjj or your nose in boxing) while minimizing serious injuries like knockouts or even worse, things like you have experienced.
Your story shows we should think all the opposite. Personally, I'm absolutely willing to take the risk to have my whole body completely wrecked, as long as it's not the spine, the neck or the brain. Of course, it's better if I can avoid it, but the pros of engaging in activities I love outweigh those cons. But I'm the worst hypocondriac when it comes to brain, neck and spine.
I remember that time where, one year ago, I got put in a NS choke by my instructor. I tapped super quickly, but he kind of cranked the choke and I felt dizzy for days afterwards. I went to the doctor and told him about the stories I'd read (which were like yours) but he told me that I was fine and that the checkup showed no sign of artery injury or dissection. With the hindsight, I think it was very close.
I think a good way to prevent those kind of injuries would be to put training partners in situations where they could be strangled but without applying any pressure, or at least applying pressure in a very smooth and progressive way, in order to not produce this crank mechanism that disrupt the artery.

These type of stories (like yours) raise the question of whether we are willing to take those risks or if we try to do everything to make combat sports completely safe (but they wouldn't be combat sports anymore them, realism and complete safety are incompatible at some point, sadly). It's like sparring in striking, the only way to make it completely safe would be to touchspar with 18oz gloves, but then it wouldn't be realistic anymore.


Again, thank you for having the courage to share your story with us (it must be hard to have to recall all those terrible things), my heart goes out to you and your family and I'm sure you will overcome the problems you are facing and come out as an even stronger person.

 

[Solidus Snake]

I think a good way to prevent those kind of injuries would be to put training partners in situations where they could be strangled but without applying any pressure, or at least applying pressure in a very smooth and progressive way, in order to not produce this crank mechanism that disrupt the artery.

In theory you are right, but in practice noone would tap to this stuff, or at least not the great majority, certainly not the "agonists" (even people who trains "tough", not necessarily mr. training 3 times a day 7/7). And the progressive smooth way mostly works where there is talent disparity, at least for most chokes.

I think it's either banning chokes or having them as they are right now, at least in the environment most of us train in. We should raise awareness somehow as exactly like you I live in Europe and I think most people would just shrug at the idea. But as of now I suspect it's the same even in the USA. However if the danger is so tangible (and it is) then something must change.

Personally if I'll ever comeback I'll just tap at the minimun pressure if not before. And I'll probably focus myself on other finishes, or in case of chokes just do the very slow way myself, and if they'll escape amen. If somebody will be mad for it, their own problem. I love jiu jitsu and all, but such a risk is not worth it.. nothing really is.

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

Having a huge neck can, at least, mitigate the chances of having this? It's a artery inside the neck? your neck need be cranked to this happen? Being a heavyweight it's a factor of risk to this? Cuz, i mean, having a guy 100kg+ choking you, for sure, it's different than a 70 kg. Op, i hope you get better.

 

[Harry Flannagan]

I just spent the better part of my afternoon reading this thread and it has been extremely helpful! As someone starting out in BJJ, it helps learning about these things so I can be careful and avoid injuries or injuring someone. Thanks a lot!

 

[uncommon]

I wonder how much damage is attributed to the wearing of a gi. I have a feeling that the rope aspect of the gi increases the choke damage by orders of magnitude.

 

[Harry Flannagan]

Edit 12/4/2020 - Thank you all for sticking this thread. I feel much better about having shared the story now that it's been stickied because I feel it will save others. If only one husband, father, wife, mother, child, is saved from this knowledge then we have all done our part. Thank you both for doing the right thing, moving our sport forward, and most importantly, caring about the well-being of others. I've added my story to the bottom of this original post.

Hi everyone, here's some information about BJJ and strokes. This is FYI only, not a statement. If you Googled "BJJ and stroke" a few years ago there wasn't that much out there. Google "BJJ and stroke" now and there's a lot more stories out there. Chris Martin has a series of videos where he interviews BJJ guys who've suffered strokes from BJJ. They're worth watching. Not trying to deter or scare anyone. Be safe.



http://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/8660482/sean-entin-life-choke

https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/arti...tery-dissection-active-duty-soldier-due-mixed

https://www.cbssports.com/mma/news/...ced-to-retire-at-44-after-suffering-a-stroke/







I think it's time I stepped forward on this. I would like to request the mods sticky this thread for reasons of awareness and safety. At first, my intention in posting this was to bring awareness. Now, I feel it's important to share my story in the hope that it never happens to someone else, especially someone who might be a father and husband. About four years ago I suffered a stroke from a choke. One night I was put in a head-arm choke. I don't remember a lot because the stroke killed 30 percent of my brain. I do remember that night when I got home my neck and head hurt. One week later the stroke hit. I won't go into too many details, partly because I don't remember much and partly because I have PTSD from the stroke and thinking about it sometimes causes flashbacks that I don't like to experience again. When the stroke hit I had a horrific feeling. It was a very scary loss of control and tunnel like experience with the onset of terrifying vertigo. There was a moment in which I felt like I passed through the line between life and death. A brief skip over of the line of death and back into life. I thought of my wife and young son. I thought I was in the moment of death. The room flipped sideways and I immediately had massive vomiting. Fortunately, I could still talk. I couldn't stand and basically laid face down with uncontrollable vomiting until paramedics arrived.

I was transported to a hospital where I continued to vomit along the way. At this point, it's all a blur unless I really try to remember details. I was pumped full of morphine and remained in the hospital for days. I do remember one time someone came in and held up a page with some people on it and asked me what they were doing. Because I had previously worked in a hospital I said to them, "Is this a stroke test?" I think they said yes. I would wake up in the hospital, complain my head hurt, and they would dose me up with more morphine and back to sleep I went. Thanks to God I had no permanent physical disabilities but the inner mental and emotional damage has been very hard and something I continue to struggle with this day. The stroke left with me things I never really thought existed before such as de-realization, anxiety, PTSD, and a host of other inner anguish. I consider myself lucky given that others who have suffered strokes are left without use of an arm, difficulty talking, can't walk, etc.

I should have shared this a long time ago. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't. Perhaps embarrassment, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps for not wanting to remember it. I share it now because I do not want this to happen to you. With every ounce of my core, I say this, you do not want to have a stroke. I could have died and left my wife and young son all because of unawareness of the potential dangers of a choke from a sport. I consider it no different than awareness of CTE in other contact sports, such as football. I could have been left paralyzed, unable to talk, walk, work, or feed myself. I hope this gives you pause to think and consider how you train. Perhaps you don't train with chokes anymore. Maybe you train with them being loosely applied and no fighting against them or hard application. Whatever you do, please take this awareness into account and make a choice that is best for you, your family, friends, and those that care about you. Share these stories with your gym owner, coaches, training partners, everyone you can. It might just save someone's life and I certainly hope it might save yours.

Thanks for sharing all of this, man! It's definitely an eye-opener. I'm going to share it with my friends, too.

 

[sb413197]

I wonder how much damage is attributed to the wearing of a gi. I have a feeling that the rope aspect of the gi increases the choke damage by orders of magnitude.

Hard to say, some no-gi chokes can be very powerful too.

I think for a long time we've looked at chokes in BJJ as "safe" compared to joint locks etc, but I think it's become clear that they really need to be treated with respect, and we shouldn't be exploding into them or waiting until very late in the choke before tapping. That will be a major culture shift.

I recently had some artery pain, thankfully there was no injury on the imaging but it was definitely a reminder.

 

[shunyata]

I think it's time I stepped forward on this. I would like to request the mods sticky this thread for reasons of awareness and safety. At first, my intention in posting this was to bring awareness. Now, I feel it's important to share my story in the hope that it never happens to someone else, especially someone who might be a father and husband. About four years ago I suffered a stroke from a choke. One night I was put in a head-arm choke. I don't remember a lot because the stroke killed 30 percent of my brain. I do remember that night when I got home my neck and head hurt. One week later the stroke hit. I won't go into too many details, partly because I don't remember much and partly because I have PTSD from the stroke and thinking about it sometimes causes flashbacks that I don't like to experience again. When the stroke hit I had a horrific feeling. It was a very scary loss of control and tunnel like experience with the onset of terrifying vertigo. There was a moment in which I felt like I passed through the line between life and death. A brief skip over of the line of death and back into life. I thought of my wife and young son. I thought I was in the moment of death. The room flipped sideways and I immediately had massive vomiting. Fortunately, I could still talk. I couldn't stand and basically laid face down with uncontrollable vomiting until paramedics arrived.

I was transported to a hospital where I continued to vomit along the way. At this point, it's all a blur unless I really try to remember details. I was pumped full of morphine and remained in the hospital for days. I do remember one time someone came in and held up a page with some people on it and asked me what they were doing. Because I had previously worked in a hospital I said to them, "Is this a stroke test?" I think they said yes. I would wake up in the hospital, complain my head hurt, and they would dose me up with more morphine and back to sleep I went. Thanks to God I had no permanent physical disabilities but the inner mental and emotional damage has been very hard and something I continue to struggle with this day. The stroke left with me things I never really thought existed before such as de-realization, anxiety, PTSD, and a host of other inner anguish. I consider myself lucky given that others who have suffered strokes are left without use of an arm, difficulty talking, can't walk, etc.

I should have shared this a long time ago. I'm not exactly sure why I didn't. Perhaps embarrassment, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps for not wanting to remember it. I share it now because I do not want this to happen to you. With every ounce of my core, I say this, you do not want to have a stroke. I could have died and left my wife and young son all because of unawareness of the potential dangers of a choke from a sport. I consider it no different than awareness of CTE in other contact sports, such as football. I could have been left paralyzed, unable to talk, walk, work, or feed myself. I hope this gives you pause to think and consider how you train. Perhaps you don't train with chokes anymore. Maybe you train with them being loosely applied and no fighting against them or hard application. Whatever you do, please take this awareness into account and make a choice that is best for you, your family, friends, and those that care about you. Share these stories with your gym owner, coaches, training partners, everyone you can. It might just save someone's life and I certainly hope it might save yours.

Thank you brother for telling the hard truth about your life and the greater practice we share.


We act like this thing we do for fun, and endorphins, and all the other reasons is MOSTLY safe.

It's not that safe.

In Japanese the Ju in Judo and Jujitsu is often translated as "gentle".

It's a shit translation given the context.

These arts and practices are GENTLE compared to dueling with blades. That's the meaning of the Japanese terms. It's GENTLE, because we aren't stabbing each other. That's the extent of the gentleness.

I'm glad you are walking and breathing and communicating, I wish you strength of body and mind in the present and future.

I personally appreciate your candor, and as a practitioner and father I've transcended to a strategy of tapping early to chokes I can't break out of quickly. Especially those in which there is palpable pressure/trauma to the blood vessels or cervical spine but not enough to put me out. This has been easier due a general sensitivity to cervical pressure / cranking, but substantially reinforced by the cases I've seen over time where everything went wrong.

I've also when on offense as the choker adopted a strategy of using a locked but not submitting choke to advance position and then be quickly abandoned. Not only for the competitive sake of my arms, but for my opponents vascular health.





And I shake my head at mother fuckers who act like leg locks are the most dangerous aspect of Jujitsu.

Law enforcement actions gone wrong have repeatedly proven that chokes and chest compressions are some of the most dangerous tools in grappling. George Floyd was murdered in 2020 by being held with a sloppy but prolonged version of the knee on neck choke Cyborg won tournaments with.

Chokes are serious business. We need to respect that as a community.

 

[shunyata]

Hard to say, some no-gi chokes can be very powerful too.

I think for a long time we've looked at chokes in BJJ as "safe" compared to joint locks etc, but I think it's become clear that they really need to be treated with respect, and we shouldn't be exploding into them or waiting until very late in the choke before tapping. That will be a major culture shift.

I recently had some artery pain, thankfully there was no injury on the imaging but it was definitely a reminder.

For far too long we in Jujitsu / submission grappling have acted like blood vessels are magically more resilient than ligaments and tendons.

In reality, anatomically, the opposite is true.

Yes, they are squishy and can rebound but that only happens without damage when it is caused by light pressure released quickly.

That's not how we finish chokes though.

 

[sb413197]

That's not how we finish chokes though.

I've moved toward slowly gliding into chokes, same as a joint lock. In some ways I think it is even more effective because the person getting choked doesn't panic/spaz when the choke slowly is coming on, and they recognize it too late to escape - and it helps me to get my technique correct too because if I don't explode into a choke my positioning and setup is usually better.

 

[Teknik Mao]

Pause for thoughts

 

[KingGuerrilla]

do sambo (no chokes)

i always felt like lapel chokes were unnaturally powerful because you basically have a belt around your neck