Opinion No, comic books didn't 'become' left wing, they always have been.

Hey folks. From my conservative movie thread I saw the topic divert briefly into comic books and I thought as this is something I'm fairly well versed in, I'd offer some knowledge. I know some people have a nostalgia for a 'good old days of comics' when they were more conservative, and I have to tell you that just isn't true. Comic book hereos at least as far as Marvel and DC have always been very progressive. I post to you these two shorts, that would be considered 'woke SJW nonsense' today let alone 60-70 years ago.

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Thanks to Jeremyemilio who sparked me to think about this topic in detail, here is my refutation to something her brings up:




All mainline DC and comic book heroes are pretty leftwing. Iron Man is a slight libertarian twist but is still a billionarie who ditched profiting off weapons to invest in renewable energy affordable appliances and 'make the world better' hippy projects.

Captain America is firmly left-wing, an anti-facist liberal arts student from New York who despite coming from the 1940s harbours no ill will towards any races, sexualities or religious groups, and actively rejects american government to pursue the ideals of tolerance and 'helping the little guy'.

Superman is literally an immigrant allegory about being accepted in a land were you weren't born, and holy shit did some of his stories trend what you would consider 'woke hysteria'.

Lois-Lane-106.jpg


Super fucking weird for sure, but turning into a black woman to expose and understand her and Superman's unconscious racial biases is hardly 'right wing'.

Stan-Lee was famously a left-wing anti-racist and made no effort to hide that. He literally gave himself a 'soapbox' to preach.

StanLeeSoapBox_01.jpg

The saddest part is that we've reached a point in America where recognizing the US is a multi-racial nation and saying it's wrong to discriminate based on religious affiliation is considered by republicans to be "left-wing".
 
The saddest part is that we've reached a point in America where recognizing the US is a multi-racial nation and saying it's wrong to discriminate based on religious affiliation is considered by republicans to be "left-wing".
Oh bullshit.
 
Ah missed that. And yeah those parties are definitely not to the right of the Nazis lol. What right wing policies did those parties have that the Nazis didnt? SPD clashed with conservatives in parliament because they wanted to expand the welfare system during the depression. National People's Party was outflanked by the Nazis, it's why they brought Hitler to power, to head off left wing parties.

How long are you gonna keep up this charade btw? There's a reason you don't find credible academics arguing Nazis were left wing.

*sigh*

from 1940:

(austrian economist ludvig von mises)
Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini constantly proclaim that they are chosen by destiny to bring salvation to this world. They claim they are the leaders of the creative youth who fight against their outlived elders. They bring from the East the new culture which is to replace the dying Western civilization. They want to give the coup de grace to liberalism and capitalism; they want to overcome immoral egoism by altruism; they plan to replace the anarchic democracy by order and organization, the society of “classes” by the total state, the market economy by socialism. Their war is not a war for territorial expansion, for loot and hegemony like the imperialistic wars of the past, but a holy crusade for a better world to live in. And they feel certain of their victory because they are convinced that they are borne by “the wave of the future.”

It is a law of nature, they say, that great historic changes cannot take place peacefully or without conflict. It would be petty and stupid, they contend, to overlook the creative quality of their work because of some unpleasantness which the great world revolution must necessarily bring with it. They maintain one should not overlook the glory of the new gospel because of ill-placed pity for Jews and Masons, Poles and Czechs, Finns and Greeks, the decadent English aristocracy and the corrupt French bourgeoisie. Such softness and such blindness for the new standards of morality prove only the decadence of the dying capitalistic pseudo-culture. The whining and crying of impotent old men, they say, is futile; it will not stop the victorious advance of youth. No one can stop the wheel of history, or turn back the clock of time.

The success of this propaganda is overwhelming. People do not consider the content of alleged new gospel; they merely understand that it is new and believe to see in this fact its justification. As women welcome a new style in clothes just to have a change, so the supposedly new style in politics and economics is welcomed. People hasten to exchange their “old” ideas for “new” ones, because they fear to appear old-fashioned and reactionary. They join the chorus decrying the shortcomings of the capitalistic civilization and speak in elated enthusiasm of the achievements of the autocrats. Nothing is today more fashionable than slandering Western civilization.

This mentality has made it easy for Hitler to gain his victories. The Czechs and the Danes capitulated without a fight. Norwegian officers handed over large sections of their country to Hitler’s army. The Dutch and the Belgians gave in after only a short resistance. The French had the audacity to celebrate the destruction of their independence as a “national revival.” It took Hitler five years to effect the Anschluss of Austria; two-and-one-half years later he was master of the European continent.

Hitler does not have a new secret weapon at his disposal. He does not owe his victory to an excellent intelligence service which informs him of the plans of his opponents. Even the much-talked-of “fifth column” was not decisive. He won because the supposed opponents were already quite sympathetic to the ideas for which he stood.

Only those who unconditionally and unrestrictedly consider the market economy as the only workable form of social cooperation are opponents of the totalitarian systems and are capable of fighting them successfully. Those who want socialism intend to bring to their country the system which Russia and Germany enjoy. To favor interventionism means to enter a road which inevitably leads to socialism.

An ideological struggle cannot be fought successfully with constant concessions to the principles of the enemy. Those who refute capitalism because it supposedly is inimical to the interest of the masses, those who proclaim “as a matter of course” that after the victory over Hitler the market economy will have to be replaced by a better system and, therefore, everything should be done now to make the government control of business as complete as possible, are actually fighting for totalitarianism. The “progressives” who today masquerade as “liberals” may rant against “fascism”; yet it is their policy that paves the way for Hitlerism.

Nothing could have been more helpful to the success of the National-Socialist (Nazi) movement than the methods used by the “progressives,” denouncing Nazism as a party serving the interests of “capital.” The German workers knew this tactic too well to be deceived by it again.

Was it not true that, since the seventies of the last century, the ostensibly pro-labor Social-Democrats had fought all the pro-labor measures of the German government vigorously, calling them “bourgeois” and injurious to the interests of the working class?

The Social-Democrats had consistently voted against the nationalization of the railroads, the municipalization of the public utilities, labor legislation, and compulsory accident, sickness, and old-age insurance, the German social security system which was adopted later throughout the world. Then after the war [World War l] the Communists branded the German Social-Democratic party and the Social-Democratic unions as “traitors to their class.” So the German workers realized that every party wooing them called the competing parties “willing servants of capitalism,” and their allegiance to Nazism would not be shattered by such phrases.

Unless we are utterly oblivious to the facts, we must realize that the German workers are the most reliable supporters of the Hitler regime. Nazism has won them over completely by eliminating unemployment and by reducing the entrepreneurs to the status of shop managers (Betriebsfuhrer). Big business, shopkeepers, and peasants are disappointed. Labor is well satisfied and will stand by Hitler, unless the war takes a turn which would destroy their hope for a better life after the peace treaty. Only military reverses can deprive Hitler of the backing of the German workers.

The fact that the capitalists and entrepreneurs, faced with the alternative of Communism or Nazism, chose the latter, does not require any further explanation. They preferred to live as shop managers under Hitler than to be “liquidated” as “bourgeois” by Stalin. Capitalists don’t like to be killed any more than other people do.

What pernicious effects may be produced by believing that the German workers are opposed to Hitler was proved by the English tactics during the first year of the war. The government of Neville Chamberlain firmly believed that the war would be brought to an end by a revolution of the German workers. Instead of concentrating on vigorous arming and fighting, they had their planes drop leaflets over Germany telling the German workers that England was not fighting this war against them, but against their oppressor, Hitler. The English government knew very well, they said, that the German people, particularly labor, were against war and were only forced into it by their self-imposed dictator.

The workers in the Anglo-Saxon countries, too, knew that the socialist parties competing for their favor usually accused each other of favoring capitalism. Communists of all shades advance this accusation against socialists. And within the Communist groups the Trotskyites used this same argument against Stalin and his men. And vice versa. The fact that the “progressives” bring the same accusation against Nazism and Fascism will not prevent labor some day from following another gang wearing shirts of a different color.

What is wrong with Western civilization is the accepted habit of judging political parties merely by asking whether they seem new and radical enough, not by analyzing whether they are wise or unwise, or whether they are apt to achieve their aims. Not everything that exists today is reasonable; but this does not mean that everything that does not exist is sensible.

The usual terminology of political language is stupid. What is “left” and what is “right”? Why should Hitler be “right” and Stalin, his temporary friend, be “left”? Who is “reactionary” and who is “progressive”? Reaction against an unwise policy is not to be condemned. And progress towards chaos is not to be commended. Nothing should find acceptance just because it is new, radical, and fashionable. “Orthodoxy” is not an evil if the doctrine on which the “orthodox” stand is sound. Who is anti-labor, those who want to lower labor to the Russian level, or those who want for labor the capitalistic standard of the United States? Who is “nationalist,” those who want to bring their nation under the heel of the Nazis, or those who want to preserve its independence?

What would have happened to Western civilization if its peoples had always shown such liking for the “new”? Suppose they had welcomed as “the wave of the future” Attila and his Huns, the creed of Mohammed, or the Tartars? They, too, were totalitarian and had military successes to their credit which made the weak hesitate and ready to capitulate. What mankind needs today is liberation from the rule of nonsensical slogans and a return to sound reasoning.

bye
 
If he went to a college today and told kids it was un American to judge people according to their skin color, he'd be shouted down and called a white nationalist and told to check his privilege, then he'd be canceled.

Wow. Shit take 30,658. You are a machine.
 
Who gives a shit about comic book characters political leanings?

Grow up
 
This was not written by someone knowledgeable of the subject.
 
*sigh*

from 1940:

(austrian economist ludvig von mises)


bye
Yes, Mises is not a fucking historian, he's a crank economist beloved by the right, especially libertarians. His writing clearly shows he doesn't have access to a lot of the primary sources and documentation modern historians do. For example, he's writing completely unaware of Hitler's Feb. 20 meeting in 1933 that infused the Nazi Party with enough cash to win.

Again, Hitler was brought to power by industrialists and conservative who feared the rise of the left in Germany. They were fellow travelers politically.
 
Yes, Mises is not a fucking historian, he's a crank economist beloved by the right, especially libertarians. His writing clearly shows he doesn't have access to a lot of the primary sources and documentation modern historians do. For example, he's writing completely unaware of Hitler's Feb. 20 meeting in 1933 that infused the Nazi Party with enough cash to win.

Again, Hitler was brought to power by industrialists and conservative who feared the rise of the left in Germany. They were fellow travelers politically.

lolz @ claiming to know more about this than the austrian economist in 1940... who detailed this shit.

<JagsKiddingMe>

it's comical how you're thoroughly unable to refute anything i said... so you just try to claim 'yeah, but it's totally right-wing!' modern lefties.
 
No... there was no political attachment apart from nationalism in a lot of comics. You don't get to claim " being a good person " as being a left leaning trait.....

You guys really do think highly off yourselves and lowly of the other.
Obviously some values represented in superheroes are just plain ole altruism but many left wing values like tolerance for the racial/religious other or acceptance of queer folks are present in comics well before they appear in other mediums.

Comics are definitely a lot more open to more cutting edge left wing values, that much is obvious. The reason being, from my POV at least, is that the medium is cheap to produce and therefore there is less invested in a comic series and that makes it more open to experimentation. In the case of the Big Two superhero companies the writers and artists are using characters they don't own so if their take on a certain character fails, just cancel the series and move the writer to a different series. Plus comics are a bit niche so comic artists tend to be eccentric creatives who are more likely to embrace radical left wing values(e.g. Alan Moore).

But of course its not like all comics are left wing. The same institutional factors that make them more open to cutting edge left wing values can work the other way. Frank Miller produces some pretty right wing stuff, some of which is probably too right wing for the mainstream. I don't think any major movie studio would ever release something as ghoulish and on the nose as Holy Terror even in a post 9/11 context and much less in 2011.
You know he's not like...... an american. Right?
If you don't think Superman is American then you don't get Superman. Which says a lot about you because he's not a very hard character to get.
 
lf


Yes, this patriotic American proudly displaying the flag of his adopted Country and defending it from all invaders who seek to do it harm is super left wing. LOL.
The best description I have read of Superman is that he is a New Deal Democrat. So center left by the standards of America in the 30s and 40s but not exactly analogous to either left or right of America in the 21st century.

I think that's one reason its been hard to make Superman work over the last few decades. He may have been a progressive figure at the time he was conceived but he's patriotic straight white male who grew up in flyover country so young urban progressives can't relate to him at all. On the flipside he's a bit too much of a bleeding heart for right wingers. Hence young progressives gravitate towards superheroes that are young, urban, and not a generic straight white male superhero(Kamala Khan, Miles Morales as Spiderman, the X-Men) and right wingers gravitate towards more gritty, hardcore law order antiheroes like The Punisher and Batman.
 
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The best description I have read of Superman is that he is a New Deal Democrat. So center left by the standards of America in the 30s and 40s but not exactly analogous to either left or right of America in the 21st century.

I think that's one reason its been hard to make Superman work over the last few decades. He may have been a progressive figure at the time he was conceived but he's patriotic straight white male who grew up in flyover country so young urban progressives can't relate to him at all. On the flipside he's a bit too much of a bleeding heart for right wingers. Hence young progressives gravitate towards superheroes that are young, urban, and not a generic straight white male superhero(Kamal Khan, Miles Morales as Spiderman, the X-Men) and right wingers gravitate towards more gritty, hardcore law order antiheroes like The Punisher and Batman.

honestly, i always thought superman was just the absolute worst/dumbest concept because he was so overpowered/invincible/ that they needed SOMETHING to create a vulnerability for the sake of suspense or whatever... and even with that realization, all they came up with was a fucking rock.

plus, his disguise was a pair of glasses. so... lolz. how this was ever a big deal was always astounding to me.
 
lolz @ claiming to know more about this than the austrian economist in 1940... who detailed this shit.

<JagsKiddingMe>

it's comical how you're thoroughly unable to refute anything i said... so you just try to claim 'yeah, but it's totally right-wing!' modern lefties.
Yeah, because unless you are a libertarian, no one takes Mises seriously at this point. He's been left behind in economics, and he was never a historian. I already pointed out to you all those left wings policies you credit with the Nazis with aren't their work. The bottom line is, the animating ideal of the Nazi Party was revaunchism, which is clearly a right wing goal in 1930s Germany. They clashed with left wing opponents, and they were brought to power by conservatives, with the backing of conservative industrialists. When in power, there goal was never driving down unemployment or expanding the social safety net or really anything financial. Everything was in service of revaunchism and expanding the military, which was a conservative goal. Those are the indisputable facts. You can't look at them and seriously argue that Nazis were left wing.
 
Yeah, because unless you are a libertarian, no one takes Mises seriously at this point. He's been left behind in economics, and he was never a historian. I already pointed out to you all those left wings policies you credit with the Nazis with aren't their work. The bottom line is, the animating ideal of the Nazi Party was revaunchism, which is clearly a right wing goal in 1930s Germany. They clashed with left wing opponents, and they were brought to power by conservatives, with the backing of conservative industrialists. When in power, there goal was never driving down unemployment or expanding the social safety net or really anything financial. Everything was in service of revaunchism and expanding the military, which was a conservative goal. Those are the indisputable facts. You can't look at them and seriously argue that Nazis were left wing.

ah, yeah. all that "right-wing" socialism.

<LikeReally5><Huh2>


lolz @ now trying to claim shit they did... wasn't their doing. the mental gymnastics you're going through to convince yourself they weren't lefties.

<JagsKiddingMe>

also lolz @ insisting everything they did was for expanding military AND that expanding the military = right.

yeah, brah. the ussr's GIGANTIC army was the epitome of right-wing capitalism. /s

i guess fdr was a huge right-winger, too.
 
ah, yeah. all that "right-wing" socialism.

<LikeReally5><Huh2>


lolz @ now trying to claim shit they did... wasn't their doing. the mental gymnastics you're going through to convince yourself they weren't lefties.

<JagsKiddingMe>

also lolz @ insisting everything they did was for expanding military AND that expanding the military = right.

yeah, brah. the ussr's GIGANTIC army was the epitome of right-wing capitalism. /s
What does the USSR have to do with this. Expanding the military is technically political. But you don't see SPD and left wing Germans from the era arguing for expanding the military and a rematch with the West. They actively fought it and the Nazis crushed them, because, shocker, the Nazis were right wing. You're clearly ignorant on the era, so perhaps read an economic history book about Nazi Germany before going off like a moron?
 
What does the USSR have to do with this. Expanding the military is technically political. But you don't see SPD and left wing Germans from the era arguing for expanding the military and a rematch with the West. They actively fought it and the Nazis crushed them, because, shocker, the Nazis were right wing. You're clearly ignorant on the era, so perhaps read an economic history book about Nazi Germany before going off like a moron?


lolz!

you JUST said that the nazis only cared about expanding that military. you repeatedly stated that expanding the military is right-wing. dumbest, this is essentially your entire argument.

so lolz @ being ignorant enough to then ask what the ussr's GIGANTIC army has to do with this.

lolz @ calling me ignorant after getting so thoroughly pwned and then self-pwned.

{<jordan}<36>



When in power, there goal was never driving down unemployment or expanding the social safety net or really anything financial. Everything was in service of revaunchism and expanding the military, which was a conservative goal. Those are the indisputable facts.

'but expanding military!' fdr, the right-wing uber: hold my beer.


modern lefties: resorts to ad-hom, calls me a moron... makes an argument that paints every ww2 participant as far-right.
 
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