Who’s the best or most well rounded athlete…

[Robocok]

Yeah.. it folds. Luckly I can put it in my offices garage.

I think the problem with mine is the valve.. I think it broke when I was pumping air into it.

Oh, those are difficult to patch

 

[No Skill Gap]

@vision1 Well there's probably a reason you didn't quote the actual posts. Because you're right, I did say that. Forgot I did, so you are right. But you essentially baited me into saying it.

You are the one who replied to my original post which had nothing to do with NA sports vs world sports or soccer or anything of that nature. This was the post:

Define cardio though in terms of sport/athlete...

I feel like "best athlete" isn't going to be defined by having amazing slow pace long distance cardio nor is it defined by slow maximal strength either. Can't think of any great or all-time athletes that excel specifically in that as their best trait.

And your response was criticizing me for only caring about North American sports? Lol? Despite the fact I readily admitted to Usain Bolt being a better athlete than some long-distance marathoner according to my subjective standards of an athlete. And what I think the objective truth is, what I would argue for. Guess I should have used Mbappe' as an example in my first post or something even though I never gave ANY examples or named ANY sports, let alone exclusively American dominated ones.

It's a pretty stupid argument at this point. No offense, but it's clear you won't ever admit you are wrong. You were the one who brought up this whole US/North American psuedo UFC vs Bellator hipster argument. I just proved to you that the US has fucking dumped on the world in the olympics to the tune of 2,828 medals to the next best being an aggregate of the Soviet Union and Russia at 1,751 medals. In terms of Golds specifically it's more dramatic.

How is this possible when the population is 320-330 million vs India's 1.3+ billion or China's near 1.4 billion or the continent of Africa's population at 1.2+ billion? Kenya coming in hot at 103 total medals, I'd imagine virtually all distance running. So you're point that I called fallacious, clearly looks fallacious when you appealed to volume and numbers without addressing 1% of the context behind them.

Well I think viewing the olympics as the end all be all or even the most important snapshot of "athletics" is actually retarded. Because there's so many niche events, a ton of it is based on training, PED programming, etc. But my point which you never addressed anyway is the fact that a lot of olympic events are either niche (shooting? now Golf, etc) or on the extreme end of the spectrum (marathon running). What makes these inherently different from powerlifting or strongman or even fucking crossfit? It's arbitrary.

And being "olympic" certainly doesn't mean that even 10 combined events' athletic pools are "better" than just pro boxing and MMA combined athletically. Let alone getting into the clear-cut dominant athlete pools of NFL/NBA, which you don't want to admit is reality...but it is. This debate/argument has become circular, no point of continuing it. You basically just strawmanned me from the get go, I never said Soccer had dogshit athletes, I think it's definitely up there in athletic talent. Probably above MLB/NHL combined, but very skill based so who knows.

 

[vision1]

And your response was criticizing me for only caring about North American sports?

Because there are many sports out there, many of which are based almost entirely on cardio and endurance

Despite the fact I readily admitted to Usain Bolt being a better athlete than some long-distance marathoner

This went over your head

No offense, but it's clear you won't ever admit you are wrong.

Wonder why?

I just proved to you that the US has fucking dumped on the world in the olympics to the tune of 2,828 medals to the next best being an aggregate of the Soviet Union and Russia at 1,751 medals. In terms of Golds specifically it's more dramatic.

Again, over your head.
Add up all non-American countries. That's a lot of medals. Way more than 2,828. Clearly many phenomenal non-American athletes out there, indicating your statement is false (quote in my last post like you asked)

retarded

A word you seem to use a lot

And being "olympic" certainly doesn't mean that even 10 combined events' athletic pools are "better" than just pro boxing and MMA combined athletically

Again, you're defining what traits are important to athleticism. It's not up to you. OP listed a bunch. Then Salvador asked about Cardio and you basically said it's not of high importance. Your opinion only. Realize that.

I never said Soccer had dogshit athletes, I think it's definitely up there in athletic talent. Probably above MLB/NHL combined, but very skill based so who knows.

Again, apples and oranges. Different athletic traits, different skills. I didn't even bring up soccer, I said endurance sports.

You're the only person on Sherdog I ever pick on because you come off as such a pompous idiot.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Because there are many sports out there, many of which are based almost entirely on cardio and endurance


This went over your head


Wonder why?


Again, over your head.
Add up all non-American countries. That's a lot of medals. Way more than 2,828. Clearly many phenomenal non-American athletes out there, indicating your statement is false (quote in my last post like you asked)


A word you seem to use a lot


Again, you're defining what traits are important to athleticism. It's not up to you. OP listed a bunch. Then Salvador asked about Cardio and you basically said it's not of high importance. Your opinion only. Realize that.


Again, apples and oranges. Different athletic traits, different skills. I didn't even bring up soccer, I said endurance sports.

You're the only person on Sherdog I ever pick on because you come off as such a pompous idiot.

It's hilarious that you think I'm the one being a pompous idiot.

Whatever is going wrong in your day you are attempting to take it out on me with some thinly veiled motive of defending another poster. I never "attacked" Salvador, I liked his next post because to me that is the application of endurance athletically (kickboxing) in an example. I was simply expressing my opinion on what is to be an athlete.

Apply the same bullshit patronizing line to yourself and stop being a fucking cunt for a second. That's only YOUR opinion that some anoxeric looking dude speed-jogging long distances is some top tier feat of athleticism. I disagree with it, strongly.

On the Olympics thing, again this is tiresome because you're basically just pulling all the Ben Shapiro tricks out of your hat to win an online argument. Your original point was that the US sports can't possibly have the best athletes because US/NA population <<<<<<< World population.

Right, yet the US has won dramatically more medals than every country besides the USSR/Russia where it has over double the total medals. Yes it's one country and there's tons of niche events. Do we count the probably rigged 1896 olympics where Greece won 46 medals and the US was in second with 20? Of course because context is dead. So we're talking 2,228 medals / 18,854 medals dating from probably irrelevant time periods but that's 15%.

Despite being a current 4.23% of the world's population, and I think it's safe to say our dominance has been at a higher rate in recent times. Okay and this was only a branch from two points -

1. That you are validating niche long-distance running and other niche sports and essentially claimed the US wasn't good at them or didn't care. To demean the weight of the "major US/NA" sports.

2. My point that many top tier athletes don't compete in the olympics that perform their respective sports/feats in the US.

I don't even know why I'm responding to you again honestly, but you surely have to see the point I'm making here no? I'm not here to have some hipster social justice debate with you over the usage of the word "retarded" or how other countries need a participation trophy. Go cry somewhere else about marathon running, I don't give a fuck.

 

[vision1]

I never "attacked" Salvador

Never said you did.
You essentially told him none of the best athletes in the world excel because of their cardio. That's plain stupid. The only reason you believe this is because of your narrow view of best athletes.

That's only YOUR opinion that some anoxeric looking dude speed-jogging long distances is some top tier feat of athleticism

I haven't even given you my opinion. I've never said who's a good or bad athlete or who's a better or worse athlete. That's been all you. I've only tried to open your eyes and have you realize you're talking factually on your opinion.

Why do you care so much about what an athlete looks like?

Your original point was that the US sports can't possibly have the best athletes because US/NA population <<<<<<< World population

Not at all. USA has amazing athletes. They fund sports more than any other country and that helps develop numerous top athletes.
But you said that the best athletes are clearly in America. That is such a dumb obnoxious comment. There are so many top tier athletes all over the globe. 7+ billion non-Americans in the world, you seriously think you won't find best athletes in that pool? They are not all or even mostly in the USA. I can't emphasis how idiotic that thought is. # of Olympic medals / capita is not relevant. Most Olympic medals have been won by non-USA countries. How can the USA possibly have all of the best athletes then?

My point that many top tier athletes don't compete in the olympics that perform their respective sports/feats in the US.

This is true for a sport like the NFL but for most sports, it's not true.
Again, USA has amazing athletes. No other country puts the time effort and money into sports like the USA does. But to think the "best athletes are clearly" in a country whose population is probably under 5% of the world's just makes no sense. Have you ever traveled and left your country? The way you speak is why Americans get a bad rep.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Never said you did.
You essentially told him none of the best athletes in the world excel because of their cardio. That's plain stupid. The only reason you believe this is because of your narrow view of best athletes.


I haven't even given you my opinion. I've never said who's a good or bad athlete or who's a better or worse athlete. That's been all you. I've only tried to open your eyes and have you realize you're talking factually on your opinion.

Why do you care so much about what an athlete looks like?


Not at all. USA has amazing athletes. They fund sports more than any other country and that helps develop numerous top athletes.
But you said that the best athletes are clearly in America. That is such a dumb obnoxious comment. There are so many top tier athletes all over the globe. 7+ billion non-Americans in the world, you seriously think you won't find best athletes in that pool? They are not all or even mostly in the USA. I can't emphasis how idiotic that thought is. # of Olympic medals / capita is not relevant. Most Olympic medals have been won by non-USA countries. How can the USA possibly have all of the best athletes then?

This is true for a sport like the NFL but for most sports, it's not true.
Again, USA has amazing athletes. No other country puts the time effort and money into sports like the USA does. But to think the "best athletes are clearly" in a country whose population is probably under 5% of the world's just makes no sense. Have you ever traveled and left your country? The way you speak is why Americans get a bad rep.

It seems like your entire goal throughout this autistic "debate" was to force me to feel shame that I'm American.

I'm not ashamed to be from the US in the least bit. Zero shame. It's one of the best countries, if not the best in modern history. If you want to deny reality then go right ahead, I've already proven that the US is objectively leaps and bounds above any other country in athletics. If you have some weird complex and are ashamed to be some (probably) white guy from Canada, that's on you dude...don't try and project that on me. Fuck off.

I never once said that every where else is a zero. There's plenty of great athletes elsewhere and I never denied that. You replied to my post with the most low IQ autistic strawman I've ever seen, my post was about long distance cardio...nothing to do with politics or NA vs international athlete pools. Seeking arguments and getting plastered, population you.

 

[vision1]

I love the US too, I visit all the time. I assure you that wasn't my goal at all in this debate.
I don't think you understand what I've been trying to say and I think almost every comment you make is completely wrong.
No need to continue. Sorry if I said anything mean towards you.

 

[vision1]

I never once said that every where else is a zero. There's plenty of great athletes elsewhere and I never denied that. You replied to my post with the most low IQ autistic strawman I've ever seen, my post was about long distance cardio...nothing to do with politics or NA vs international athlete pools. Seeking arguments and getting plastered, population you.

It must be an english thing, where what you write down isn't the same as what you mean to say.
Anyways, if Sherdog comes up with a "Most Well Rounded Athlete" competition, I'd be happy to challenge you. My athleticism makes up for my low IQ.

 

[No Skill Gap]

It must be an english thing, where what you write down isn't the same as what you mean to say.
Anyways, if Sherdog comes up with a "Most Well Rounded Athlete" competition, I'd be happy to challenge you. My athleticism makes up for my low IQ.

That depends on how just how many niche long-distance events that clearly don't prove athleticism are jammed into the competition

 

[Deleted member 512089]

His athleticism translates to other sports that aren't niche. Soccer, Football, Basketball, Baseball - his athleticism matters and would be beneficial (without addressing skills).

Just a quick remark. American Football and Baseball are pretty niche in the vast majority of the world. American Football especially is niche everywhere outside america, while baseball has some decent leagues in Japan and central america and that's pretty much it. Here in France for example both are super duper niche.

While football (soccer) and basketball are widespread worldwide.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Just a quick remark. American Football and Baseball are pretty niche in the vast majority of the world. American Football especially is niche everywhere outside america, while baseball has some decent leagues in Japan and central america and that's pretty much it. Here in France for example both are super duper niche.

While football (soccer) and basketball are widespread worldwide.

You have to define the word niche in this context.

I agree that the NFL specifically is a sport localized to the US. I don't think baseball is nearly as niche as you think considering plenty of talent comes from Latin American areas like Mexico, Cuba, DR, South America, etc. In addition to Korea/Japan. I would say baseball is actually more worldwide than basketball is, but maybe that will change soon and already has idk.

The NFL had over double the revenue of the EPL in 2019. The NFL, MLB, and NBA all had higher revenue. So how can they be called niche?

And I realize there's more soccer leagues, so combine EPL + Bundesliga + La Liga + the Italian one and you get to about ~14.1 billion. The NFL was at 11.4 billion itself (college has big revenue). So obviously no one is arguing soccer is less popular, but you cannot possibly call football "niche". Regardless the entire point was about athletic talent.

So I don't think revenue is the main focus here anyway. The requisite level of athleticism to play in the NFL (barring specialist positions, even then lol) is just way higher than it is to play high level soccer or baseball. Those are far more skill based sports. The NFL (and the NBA) are the epitome of athletic talent. People can disagree with that, they'd be wrong though. I also never came into this thread arguing this but it's all good.

 

[vision1]

Just a quick remark. American Football and Baseball are pretty niche in the vast majority of the world. American Football especially is niche everywhere outside america, while baseball has some decent leagues in Japan and central america and that's pretty much it. Here in France for example both are super duper niche.

While football (soccer) and basketball are widespread worldwide.

Don't bother. He thinks distance running is niche ... the most common form of exercise in the world.

 

[Phlog]

Is American football the ultimate display of athleticism? Come on now.

Rob Konrad former Dolphins full back swam 27 miles of night time sea to get back to shore after falling off his boat.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/...counts-his-27-mile-swim-to-florida-coast.html

Yeah, I think the NFL is probably the ultimate display of athleticism.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

You have to define the word niche in this context.

I agree that the NFL specifically is a sport localized to the US. I don't think baseball is nearly as niche as you think considering plenty of talent comes from Latin American areas like Mexico, Cuba, DR, South America, etc. In addition to Korea/Japan. I would say baseball is actually more worldwide than basketball is, but maybe that will change soon and already has idk.

The NFL had over double the revenue of the EPL in 2019. The NFL, MLB, and NBA all had higher revenue. So how can they be called niche?

And I realize there's more soccer leagues, so combine EPL + Bundesliga + La Liga + the Italian one and you get to about ~14.1 billion. The NFL was at 11.4 billion itself (college has big revenue). So obviously no one is arguing soccer is less popular, but you cannot possibly call football "niche". Regardless the entire point was about athletic talent.

So I don't think revenue is the main focus here anyway. The requisite level of athleticism to play in the NFL (barring specialist positions, even then lol) is just way higher than it is to play high level soccer or baseball. Those are far more skill based sports. The NFL (and the NBA) are the epitome of athletic talent. People can disagree with that, they'd be wrong though. I also never came into this thread arguing this but it's all good.

I am not arguing about the profitability of the NFL. I don't know much about NFL financials and i take your word on it. But it's not the point i tried to make.

Than the NFL generates more revenue comes from the fact that it is the king sport of the USA, the richest country in the world. But that doesn't prove that it's widespread. And yes baseball has decent leagues in central america and japan but i said it in my post. That doesn't make it has widespread as soccer or basketball. Almost everybody everywhere in the world has played those two sports at a point in his life. I never played american football even once. By niche what i meant is that it is confined to a specific part of the world, but you agreed on that so i don't think there's much of a disagreement here.

Anyway on the topic of athleticism, i think that rugby is a far superior display of athleticism than american football. Hear me out a second before saying it's euro bias please. Rugby is high pace high contact throughout the full game, it requires strength, explosiveness and cardio. Whereas American football requires tremendous explosiveness and good strength but doesn't really have much of a high bar for cardio because of all the stop and start during the game.

And I'm not saying NFL players are not athletic, they are. But my personal subjective vision of a great well rounded athlete is that he should also have good cardio. And i think we should all have this criteria in consideration.

For NBA i totally agree with you tho, high level basketball checks all the boxes of a great athlete for me.

Also i'd argue that the best athletes are decathlonians or the crossfiters who go to the world CrossFit games. Just watch one event on YouTube and you tell me if you think that matt fraser is a great athlete or not.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

Rob Konrad former Dolphins full back swam 27 miles of night time sea to get back to shore after falling off his boat.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/...counts-his-27-mile-swim-to-florida-coast.html

Yeah, I think the NFL is probably the ultimate display of athleticism.

It's probably Decathlonians that are the best display of athleticism. NFL is one of the best display of raw explosiveness and strength, i'd agree with that. But as all around athlete some are more well rounded because they have better cardio on top of that.

Anyway it's a moot point because every athlete is athletic in his sport. Usain Bolt and a marathonian have a different type of athleticism specific to their sport.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Rob Konrad former Dolphins full back swam 27 miles of night time sea to get back to shore after falling off his boat.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/...counts-his-27-mile-swim-to-florida-coast.html

Yeah, I think the NFL is probably the ultimate display of athleticism.

Well duh, he was a dolphin after all...*


*I'll get my coat

 

[Fahcough]

What if.. the best athletes don't play ball sports


parkour

 

[monkeyrhythm]

In all seriousness this is what Glassman attempted to do with Crossfit: Define what athleticism is, then how to programme its development, and test its expression.
It's open to debate how successful he was but if the financial rewards were the same as other sports (NFL for example), then there's a reasonable chance Crossfit is where you'd find the "best or most well rounded athlete" - although the OP specified "On this forum" so I'm not sure why everyone is answering a different question...


*but let's just say parkour, cos that shit's cool as fuck.

 

[Phlog]

Anyway on the topic of athleticism, i think that rugby is a far superior display of athleticism than american football. Hear me out a second before saying it's euro bias please. Rugby is high pace high contact throughout the full game, it requires strength, explosiveness and cardio. Whereas American football requires tremendous explosiveness and good strength but doesn't really have much of a high bar for cardio because of all the stop and start during the game.

And I'm not saying NFL players are not athletic, they are. But my personal subjective vision of a great well rounded athlete is that he should also have good cardio. And i think we should all have this criteria in consideration.

For NBA i totally agree with you tho, high level basketball checks all the boxes of a great athlete for me.

Also i'd argue that the best athletes are decathlonians or the crossfiters who go to the world CrossFit games. Just watch one event on YouTube and you tell me if you think that matt fraser is a great athlete or not.

Fair point re cross fit, but I think a lot of those people miss out on a some of the properties that lead to success in sports, hence why they're in CrossFit.

TS stated some criteria, but admittedly he implied it wasn't definitive:
Strength
Strength endurance
Conditioning
Explosiveness/Power
Quickness/Speed
Maybe coordination

I guess I value size as a criteria also, with most of the traits being more important in a 'relative to size' context.

Many guys in the NFL have great cardio, they need to be able to run max effort sprints for hours.

 

[No Skill Gap]

I am not arguing about the profitability of the NFL. I don't know much about NFL financials and i take your word on it. But it's not the point i tried to make.

Than the NFL generates more revenue comes from the fact that it is the king sport of the USA, the richest country in the world. But that doesn't prove that it's widespread. And yes baseball has decent leagues in central america and japan but i said it in my post. That doesn't make it has widespread as soccer or basketball. Almost everybody everywhere in the world has played those two sports at a point in his life. I never played american football even once. By niche what i meant is that it is confined to a specific part of the world, but you agreed on that so i don't think there's much of a disagreement here.

Anyway on the topic of athleticism, i think that rugby is a far superior display of athleticism than american football. Hear me out a second before saying it's euro bias please. Rugby is high pace high contact throughout the full game, it requires strength, explosiveness and cardio. Whereas American football requires tremendous explosiveness and good strength but doesn't really have much of a high bar for cardio because of all the stop and start during the game.

And I'm not saying NFL players are not athletic, they are. But my personal subjective vision of a great well rounded athlete is that he should also have good cardio. And i think we should all have this criteria in consideration.

For NBA i totally agree with you tho, high level basketball checks all the boxes of a great athlete for me.

Also i'd argue that the best athletes are decathlonians or the crossfiters who go to the world CrossFit games. Just watch one event on YouTube and you tell me if you think that matt fraser is a great athlete or not.

Let me be succinct on what factors I'm trying to highlight here:

1. NFL Football or any sport that has a huge revenue is going to therefore recruit the best athletes, general statement. So sure Rugby constructed as a sport is a great display of athleticism, I'd probably agree, but it doesn't recruit the best athletes and is far more niche than football is. Why?

Because their top players make 70k a year where as the top NFL stars make 10-40 million a year and are way more famous. Football is the premiere sport in the US essentially, where as Rugby isn't even close to soccer and perhaps other sports even in NZ or AUS I'd bet (not 100% sure).

2. The sport matters. So this is where Rugby specifically might shine, but other sports like Soccer imo, and Baseball and even Hockey/Tennis are going to be deducted points. Why? Because they rely far more on skill or limit athleticism in some fashion.

For example Soccer has very limited physicality. Upper-body strength is basically irrelevant. Having top tier burst, agility, speed isn't required as much as it is in basketball or NFL football imo. Tennis, again there's plenty of agility and cutting, but it's a skill sport. We're not even touching on more niche things like long distance running or swimming or something random, even weightlifting, etc.

Obviously anyone reaching a pinnacle in any of these sports is a "good" athlete. But what I've been saying in this discussion is focused on where the highest concentration of top athletes and the peak level of athleticism is. And to me that is clear and obvious - NFL/NBA.

Soccer, MLB, NHL, Boxing, even MMA...all house some great athletes for sure. Maybe Soccer has the greatest volume of athletes at a certain caliber, but that's not really what I was arguing. I never said other countries don't have good to great athletes, that would be retarded. I also never said other sports don't.

I am simply saying that to play in the NFL (barring some QBs, punter/kicker/specialist) you have to be an incredible athlete. In the NBA minus some exceptions it's the same. I don't think you can say that about other sports on the same level, they just don't require it per se.