GSP's wrestling now that the Caucasians have taken over?

[jeff7b9]

What does one have to do with the other?

GSP's wrestling should be considered in the context of the elite competition in MMA during his prime, and it was absolutely dominant.

This is like belittling Mozart for not using a delay pedal or not arranging for electric guitar.


Also let us not ignore GSP's beautiful striking. He revolutionized the Jab for MMA, his mix of strikes and level changes was leagues beyond the MMA world at the time. He changed the game.

Then AFTER GSP had changed the game, including leading the way for fighter wealth, Khabib came along and made his mark.

Each deserves their shine for their contributions and it is silly to attempt to use one to diminish the other, they are from different generations.

 

[grimballer]

GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?

well depends how you look at it

fitch was division 1, but didnt accomplish anything significant and finished his wrestling career with 45-51 record

hughes was also division 1, 2 times all american and had 80-15 wrestling record, however had a 35% tdd

shields was division 2 with 29% td and 35% tdd

koscheck was division 1 and 4 time all american so was hendricks

so outta all tbe wrestlers gsp faced kos and hendricks were probably the best

 

[moreorless87]

GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?

I think if you question his opposotion its actually moreso a lack of strikers with exellent takedown defence besides an undersized BJ.

 

[Bojka]

Part of the reason the Dagestanis are doing so well is because the UFC isn't signing as many wrestlers/grapplers as before.

Look at LHW. All of the wrestlers got sent to Bellator. Colby was in danger of being cut before starting his schtick. It's easier to look dominant when the wrestling field is so weak because the UFC prioritizes signing/resigning strikers.

It's also probably a reason why Glover became champ.

 

[Bojka]

UFC has abandoned American wrestlers, they're all going to Belator.

The idea that American D1 wrestlers can't compete with the Wrestlers from the caucus region is nonsense. Gables just ran through the Olympics without breaking a sweat, and is still going for his 4th national title.

Sadly, North American talent isn't in high demand in the UFC unless you have rainbow colored hair.

There's a lot of truth to this. These caucus guys are great, but they're not doing anything mind blowing. There are grapplers from several other countries who are on that level, but it just seems like the UFC is trying to tap into that russian/dagestani market at the moment.

Ok I'm glad other people see it too.

 

[Travis Alexander]

Hendricks bullied GSP in the clinch and took him down. And he was a D1 Wrestler who don't compare to these Chechens/Dagestanis

Your lack of knowledge and recency bias are laughable. This forum is getting worse and worse.

 

[Sinspartan]

GSP had 9 title defenses, beating in his MMA career good wrestlers (Sherk, Fitch and Shields), great wrestlers (Koscheck (2x) Hughes (2x) and Hendricks) and fighters with great TDD (BJ Penn).

The greatest caucasian fighter in MMA history (Nurmagomedov) had 3 title defenses, beating in his MMA career one great wrestler (Gaethje) and two good wrestlers (Johnson and Tibau). The other caucasians fighters are not even champions yet, let alone defending the championship multiple times, so it's better to take a step back and analyse this without passion.

 

[Lee_]

Important to note, the level of wrestling in GSPs day was much higher and grappling much more focused on. Khabib? Hasn't exactly fought good wrestlers, in Bagov and Tibau he struggled for takedowns.

Penn
Hughes
Koscheck
Hendricks
Sherk
Fitch
Shields

GSP had to fight elite grapplers and wrestlers who were also legitimate top 10 contenders. Islam wasn't dominant vs Tsarukyan or Moises with wrestling like he was with Dober or Hooker...I wonder why?

Khamzats best win is a 18-7 fighter who was outwrestled and controlled by Magny and Jake Matthews (who?).

They are aggressive and dominant though, but they arent exactly going up against well suited opposition.

Thank you for this post.

let's not go over the deep in saying these guys compare to GSP just yet. It would be too soon to do that, even for Khabib.

Keep dominating on the ground into older age against decorated grappling competition, then you are in the conversation with GSP.

 

[GrantB13]

GSPs wrestling was a little more explosive and flashy. Power double legs, scoop and dump, etc. Dagestani wrestling seems to rely more on drags and trips.

 

[Paladin]

GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?

They were good. GSP’s game was multi faceted and kept opponents guessing.

GSP had really good hands
- Amazing kicks
- Presented a Constant threat of take down
- accurate, fast, well timed takedowns
- Once down, GSP’s opponents almost never got up, and endured a barrage of blows and the threat of a submission if they tried to scramble
- good distance control that made it hard to hit him as much (he took blows but not as much as he dished out)

 

[TorontoTO]

Part of the reason the Dagestanis are doing so well is because the UFC isn't signing as many wrestlers/grapplers as before.

Look at LHW. All of the wrestlers got sent to Bellator. Colby was in danger of being cut before starting his schtick. It's easier to look dominant when the wrestling field is so weak because the UFC prioritizes signing/resigning strikers.

It's also probably a reason why Glover became champ.

Jiri was basically given a path to the title without facing any wrestlers. Volkan and Reyes have a combined 4 takedowns in all of their UFC fights

 

[Hollywood Jack]

GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?

I think the Caucasus style still would have struggled with him both defensively and offensively. It's an explosive shot when you least expect it. And he was really hard to take down due to his athletic and technical prowess. Few men possess such levels of both attributes. You look at guys like Koscheck who was also explosive and high level in that field, and he couldn't handle it at all.

 

[Bojka]

Jiri was basically given a path to the title without facing any wrestlers. Volkan and Reyes have a combined 4 takedowns in all of their UFC fights

Same for Gane I think. He's interim champ atm without facing a single guy with any wrestling.

 

[Noraaq]

Hendricks didn't bully GSP in the grappling. You're being hyperbolic. And Hendricks isn't just some D1 wrestler -- The guy was one of the best Collegiate wrestlers that the UFC has ever seen. Neither khabib nor islam have faced a wrestler of that caliber in the UFC.

It doesn’t matter about his wrestling credentials if he doesnt use the skills in MMA. It’s the same with Romero, highly decorated wrestler, but he should not be considered an elite MMA wrestler. These guys want to be KO artist.

The Dagastanis WANT to wrestle their opponents in the cage, both sides know what’s coming. It’s a different mindset.

 

[koquerelle]

GSP would take these neckbeards down with ease. He was the best at setting up TD.

 

[BADBOYKILLA]

GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?

Are you kidding me

 

[Local Plata]

Since when are these guys the benchmark for wrestling? You think because Khabib made it big, thus the UFC is building up a bunch of his buddies by feeding them people, that somehow Dagestan is producing a stable of unstoppable wrestlers?

 

[Hollywood Jack]

GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?

Yeah, especially for the era. In his UFC run, basically ALL guys with good/great amateur wrestling and/or BJJ/Judo credentials. The notable exceptions were Bisping, Alves and Hardy. And even in Alves and Bisping's case, they showed pretty solid anti-wrestling/grappling skills leading up to their matches against GSP. Hardy was the one who got gifted a title shot while avoiding grapplers/wrestlers and then got destroyed, although he escaped being submitted by GSP by refusing to tap and somehow not snapping either. Alves and Bisping both beat good grapplers in their fights leading up to their title matches with GSP.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

His chain wrestling isn't as good as that of a guy like Islam or Khabib, but he made his takedowns unbelievably effective with the way he incorporated his striking into his wrestling.
What's of course also worth noting is that while MMA has evolved, GSP regularly outwrestled wrestlers, so regardless of who's the better MMA-wrestler between let's say Makhachev and St-Pierre, it's close, i'd imagine.

Good post, but I wonder how much this was a product of not needing to chain wrestle. Because his timing and explosiveness was so strong. Those other guys need to chain wrestle. GSP rarely got stuffed in the first place.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

D1 doesn't mean a whole lot in MMA though does it...

Perhaps not, but then factor in that those guys were all All-Americans except Shields, but then you mix Shields' wrestling ability with his submission wrestling acumen and he's just an excellent overall grappler. Look at what he did to Hendo fighting up a weight class.