GSP's wrestling now that the Caucasians have taken over?

KBE6EKCTAH_CCP

KBE6EKCTAH_CCP

The thin end of the wedge
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GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?
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GSP was a very good wrestler but was his opposition that good ( MMA grappling wise)?
 
UFC has abandoned American wrestlers, they're all going to Belator.

The idea that American D1 wrestlers can't compete with the Wrestlers from the caucus region is nonsense. Gables just ran through the Olympics without breaking a sweat, and is still going for his 4th national title.

Sadly, North American talent isn't in high demand in the UFC unless you have rainbow colored hair.
 
What's crazy is his background is actually Karate. Never had high school/collegiate wrestling experience, and never wrestled until he started MMA. Meanwhile, this wrestling skill of his is being compared to the guys of today who have been doing it since they were like 4. I think that's just something worth pointing out. It reflects his pure talent and skill, and the work he's put in on how fast he learned to reach a certain level though he didn't started at a very young age. If his MMA wrestling has been widely considered as one of the best for years, could you imagine if he started doing it when he was a kid?
 
His chain wrestling isn't as good as that of a guy like Islam or Khabib, but he made his takedowns unbelievably effective with the way he incorporated his striking into his wrestling.
What's of course also worth noting is that while MMA has evolved, GSP regularly outwrestled wrestlers, so regardless of who's the better MMA-wrestler between let's say Makhachev and St-Pierre, it's close, i'd imagine.
 
JoshR86 said:
UFC has abandoned American wrestlers, they're all going to Belator.

The idea that American D1 wrestlers can't compete with the Wrestlers from the caucus region is nonsense. Gables just ran through the Olympics without breaking a sweat, and is still going for his 4th national title.

Sadly, North American talent isn't in high demand in the UFC unless you have rainbow colored hair.
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I think part of the issue though is that "just stand up" has become such a widely used tactic these days that looking to win via control alone is difficult.

Previously I think a lot of US wrestlers really benefited a lot from LnP tactics, BJJ guys who were happy to engage them on the ground throwing up sub atempts and the wrestler would just defend from the top and win a decision. Now though the BJJ guy is probably going to give up his back to stand back up and escape quite fast so pushing hard for a takedown becomes a waste of energy.

A lot of the Dagistani guys sucess is I'd say based on there having good offencive sub games, good enough that its not easy to "just stand up" against them.
 
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cmw43 said:
Yep Koscheck, Hughes, Fitch, Shields and Big Rigg were all D1 wrestlers and Shields in particular is one of the best grapplers ever at WW.

Plus Prime BJ was no slouch either.
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Khamzat beat a D1 wrestler in the first round by taking him down on his first attempt and pounding him out. I remember GSP having long drawn-out fights with his D1 wrestlers.
 
moreorless87 said:
I think part of the issue though is that "just stand up" has become such a widely used tactic these days that looking to win via control alone is difficult.

Previously I think a lot of US wrestlers really benefited a lot from LnP tactics, BJJ guys who be happy to enguage them on the ground throwing up sub atempts and the wrestler would just defend from the top and win a decision. Now though the BJJ guy is probably going to give up his back to stand back up and escape quite fast so pushing hard for a takedown becomes a waste of energy.

A lot of the Dagistani guys sucess is I'd say based on there having good offencive sub games, good enough that its not easy to "just stand up" against them.
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Except the American wrestlers are still prevelant in MMA, Belator is just getting them because UFC isn't interested in them.

Im not even sure it's a style issue, as we aren't seeing many North American signings in general. UFC seems to be going really hard on the international scene.
 
giovanni_ss said:
What's crazy is his background is actually Karate. Never had high school/collegiate wrestling experience, and never wrestled until he started MMA. Meanwhile, this wrestling skill of his is being compared to the guys of today who have been doing it since they were like 4. I think that's just something worth pointing out. It reflects his pure talent and skill, and the work he's put in on how fast he learned to reach a certain level though he didn't started at a very young age. If his MMA wrestling has been widely considered as one of the best for years, could you imagine if he started doing it when he was a kid?
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You're right & I never considered that. If he started wrestling young he might have just stuck with that sport and never switched over to compete in MMA.
 
moreorless87 said:
I think really GSP's big talent was his ability to time his shots, the way he worked it into his standup to the degree he could catch someone coming forward.

The two best ever at that for me remain GSP and Arona.
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Yep GSP was so good at MMA because thats what he was a fluid mix of martial arts not showing any real weakness in any area
 
Important to note, the level of wrestling in GSPs day was much higher and grappling much more focused on. Khabib? Hasn't exactly fought good wrestlers, in Bagov and Tibau he struggled for takedowns.

Penn
Hughes
Koscheck
Hendricks
Sherk
Fitch
Shields

GSP had to fight elite grapplers and wrestlers who were also legitimate top 10 contenders. Islam wasn't dominant vs Tsarukyan or Moises with wrestling like he was with Dober or Hooker...I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Khamzats best win is a 18-7 fighter who was outwrestled and controlled by Magny and Jake Matthews (who?).

They are aggressive and dominant though, but they arent exactly going up against well suited opposition.
 
His takedowns are the best, because he does it when his opponents are not ready / not quick enough to react.

So it doesn't matter what wrestling style it's up against imo, chances are you're not gonna stop it if you're not ready for it.

He is hands down the best MMA wrestler in the sport, and he proved it against a long list of MMA wrestlers and guys with strong TDD. Hughes, Trigg, Sherk, Fitch, Koscheck, Karo, BJ, Alves, etc.
 
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