Social Joy Reid Defends Books with Pedophilia in Public School Librairies

[spamking]

children are just tiny oblivious morons

This is definitely child-specific . . . heck, some adults are oblivious morons.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Folks might not be arguing for it to be taught, but they are seeming to argue that the content should be left in place and made available in a library.

Either way, I'm glad my kids are grown and I don't need to worry about this . . .

I think, if we're being honest, it's pretty silly for anyone to worry about whether a book in a HS library (and probably rarely if ever checked out) has scenes that push the boundaries of what some consider PC.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I swear the more some of you talk the more you reveal that you think children are just tiny oblivious morons until you fill their heads full of your own prejudices.

Not just children, IMO. Lots of people think that other people are just incredibly suggestible and so it's really important to prevent them from hearing stuff that they don't like. In reality, mass-persuasion (political propaganda, advertising, etc.) has been a massive failure.

 

[Sinister]

This is definitely child-specific . . . heck, some adults are oblivious morons.

That it is specific is part of my point. But there is a constant effort to either a) paint all the children with the same oblivious moron brush or b) apply a "lowest common denominator" standard to all children because it is more agreeable to a traditionalist narrative.

I work with a boxing Coach who is almost like a sibling to me, but he's irritating because he tells me EVERY little thing my kids do. "Hey man, your kid is over there!!" "Hey man, your kid touched that thing!!" "Hey man, your kid is thinking about doing that thing!!" He rationalizes his concerns with the dangers of the World, regardless of how many times I've told him that I teach them about those dangers but sometimes they just have to experience things. That makes him VERY distraught. If you ask me, it comes from that he felt neglected and unprotected as a child (latchkey kid like me). But somehow that's now every kid's problem who interacts with him. I often razz him with "Bro just because you were dumb doesnt mean my kids are dumb."

 

[Islam Imamate]

I shouldn't paint it as though you're hysterical about it. Probably my wording is doing that, I'll adjust.

I'm saying that whatever concern you have, it doesn't seem warranted to me. A balance will be found between the loons that think kids of any age are fair game for anything (see: the crazy fucks in that German school district that had a masturbation room for kindergartners where it was encouraged for them to touch each other's privates, etc) and the loons that think any mention of a gay person is Armageddon.

Obviously because its convenient for your argument here but I think I've provided ample evidence to suggest that its a more pressing concern than the mere presence of they/them memoirs in public school libraries. To the extent that reasonable adults make decisions on these books in their proper context they tend to decide on keeping it aside from the very rare cases where they found their way into an elementary school collection.

That is why groups like Moms 4 Liberty will go a step further beyond challenging the books to trying to push through their preferred candidates into school boards. And this is in states that already have favorable environments for charter schools which conservative parents could send their kids to if they really felt the values of the local public schools was so at odds with their own.

I think, if we're being honest, it's pretty silly for anyone to worry about whether a book in a HS library (and probably rarely if ever checked out) has scenes that push the boundaries of what some consider PC.

Exactly but the same people who argue that they/them memoirs in public school libraries is a serious concern will ask you to ignore the wider national trend of conservative groups trying to enforce their preferred cultural norms through the use of state level legislation and partisan agitators at the local level.

 

[spamking]

I think, if we're being honest, it's pretty silly for anyone to worry about whether a book in a HS library (and probably rarely if ever checked out) has scenes that push the boundaries of what some consider PC.

Those boundaries will obviously be different for each family. There just needs to be a happy medium where options are there for parents regardless of what side of the boundary they fall. I agree the existence of a book in a library shouldn't be a major concern.

 

[spamking]

That it is specific is part of my point. But there is a constant effort to either a) paint all the children with the same oblivious moron brush or b) apply a "lowest common denominator" standard to all children because it is more agreeable to a traditionalist narrative.

Applying the lowest common denominator aspect in education is about the only way to get a classroom of 20 kids to pass.

Great teachers bring the lower kids up to the level of the others and don't teach down. We just need more teachers that are able to do that.

 

[PhitePhan]

Wtf makes you think you cant explain AIDS to a 9 year-old? There are children born with HIV. You don't think they ever explain that to their peers, or that a teacher doesn't? My Aunt just passed from ALS and my wife, Mother, and myself all explained to our 10 and 7 year-old kids what that is. My 7 year-old asked if he could get ALS from her and took it perfectly in stride when we explained it to him how people get it. Explaining AIDS wouldnt be any different.

I swear the more some of you talk the more you reveal that you think children are just tiny oblivious morons until you fill their heads full of your own prejudices.

Two penguin dads doesn’t even educate kids though, and these books lie to children and provide half-truths. You don’t want two dad penguins book to explain what goes along with homosexuality, you want to tell kids “this is normal” when it’s not.

If YOU want to explain AIDS to your kids go right ahead- for all your virtue signaling, I can almost guarantee you’re not actually educating your kids about homosexuality this way, but you do you. My kids at that age have no need whatsoever to learn about STDs though…

And yes, kids are very limited and progress through typical stages of mental, emotional and physical development. As such, they require careful guidance.

 

[PhitePhan]

I don't think teachers need to make any moral judgements on it at all. Just "yep some families have 2 dads". Beyond that if a kid that young wants more discussion, a decent teacher can redirect and communicate with the parents that the kid was asking. "We had a book where the boy had 2 dads. Jimmy was asking. I told him that's how some families are. He wanted to discuss further but I thought that was a better conversation for you to have."

So should we introduce kids to polygamy as well? How about sexual fetishes or infidelity?

I think the answer is of course not, so why in this instance are we exposing kids to ANY aspect of adult sexuality?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Those boundaries will obviously be different for each family. There just needs to be a happy medium where options are there for parents regardless of what side of the boundary they fall. I agree the existence of a book in a library shouldn't be a major concern.

I agree with you but if I'm being honest for some its not really about having options for individual parents as much as it is being able to dictate to the entire system what is and isn't appropriate in terms of cultural norms. You see that with @PhitePhan arguing that actually homosexuality shouldn't be introduced to children at all and so for people like that the ultimate goal is to not have any titles that reference homosexuality in public school libraries.

As I said earlier both Florida and Texas, which are leading the nation in these book challenges, are also states that are favorable to charter schools so if anything there are options in those states for parents. In fact here in Florida we even had a charter school called the Tallahassee Classical School which was basically about offering a conservative education and was even affiliated with the conservative Hillsdale College. But even there philistine parents went after educators for showing Michelangelo's David and the whole school was a shitshow with massive turnover leading Hillsdale College to terminate its association with the school.

I don't point this out to gloat as unlike other Democrats I want schools like that to succeed so that conservative parents who object to norms of wider mainstream society can have an alternative school that better reflects their values. Heck if I had a kid and there was such a school available to me I would consider sending them there myself depending on what the school looked like in practice. But its never going to happen if one indulges this moral panic about "grooming" to the point that even conservative schools get harassed for showing a masterpiece of the Western canon.

 

[PhitePhan]

I agree with you but if I'm being honest for some its not really about having options for individual parents as much as it is being able to dictate to the entire system what is and isn't appropriate in terms of cultural norms. You see that with @PhitePhan arguing that actually homosexuality shouldn't be introduced to children at all and so for people like that the ultimate goal is to not have any titles that reference homosexuality in public school libraries.

As I said earlier both Florida and Texas, which are leading the nation in these book challenges, are also states that are favorable to charter schools so if anything there are options in those states for parents. In fact here in Florida we even had a charter school called the Tallahassee Classical School which was basically about offering a conservative education and was even affiliated with the conservative Hillsdale College. But even there philistine parents went after educators for showing Michelangelo's David and the whole school was a shitshow with massive turnover leading Hillsdale College to terminate its association with the school.

I don't point this out to gloat as unlike other Democrats I want schools like that to succeed so that conservative parents who object to norms of wider mainstream society can have an alternative school that better reflects their values. Heck if I had a kid and there was such a school available to me I would consider sending them there myself depending on what the school looked like in practice. But its never going to happen if one indulges this moral panic about "grooming" to the point that even conservative schools get harassed for showing a masterpiece of the Western canon.

I don’t think sexuality should be introduced to children.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don’t think sexuality should be introduced to children.

What does that mean exactly? Because you're not merely talking about references to sexual acts but references to non-normative sexuality from the POV of conservatives right? Presumably you wouldn't be against Disney princess movies being shown in schools just because the princess and the prince kiss?

 

[James Eagle]

Sure. Except your stance that 9 year olds are generally going through puberty isn't any less stupid now than it was when you first said it.

I don't advocate ignoring discussion on discrimination. If you think that cannot be accomplished without getting deep into the weeds of sexuality with young kids, I'm not sure what to tell you. My daughter's teachers were able to navigate it very well, and I'm thankful for that. I hope your kids get equally as capable teachers.

he added a source, pubmed, the wiki of med

 

[mkess101]

Obviously because its convenient for your argument here but I think I've provided ample evidence to suggest that its a more pressing concern than the mere presence of they/them memoirs in public school libraries. To the extent that reasonable adults make decisions on these books in their proper context they tend to decide on keeping it aside from the very rare cases where they found their way into an elementary school collection.

That is why groups like Moms 4 Liberty will go a step further beyond challenging the books to trying to push through their preferred candidates into school boards. And this is in states that already have favorable environments for charter schools which conservative parents could send their kids to if they really felt the values of the local public schools was so at odds with their own.

Exactly but the same people who argue that they/them memoirs in public school libraries is a serious concern will ask you to ignore the wider national trend of conservative groups trying to enforce their preferred cultural norms through the use of state level legislation and partisan agitators at the local level.

Just as it's "convenient" for my argument to feel like I do, it's "convenient" for you to view your evidence as "ample". I disagree that less than 1% of districts having banned maybe 1 book title is "ample evidence".

So there we are.

 

[mkess101]

So should we introduce kids to polygamy as well? How about sexual fetishes or infidelity?

I think the answer is of course not, so why in this instance are we exposing kids to ANY aspect of adult sexuality?

Well polygamy is illegal AFAIK so no on that one.

I don't think saying some kid had 2 dads to a group of 8 year olds really delves into adult sexuality because young kids don't process adult relationships through a sexual lens.

If you read a kid a story and mention the mom and dad I don't think you're talking about sexuality either.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Just as it's "convenient" for my argument to feel like I do, it's "convenient" for you to view your evidence as "ample". I disagree that less than 1% of districts having banned maybe 1 book title is "ample evidence".

So there we are.

In the grand scheme of things 1% is a lot, that's why when we compile population level stats its usually using much finer measurements like the rate per 100,000. So we could re-contextualize that stat as 1,000 per 100,000 school districts have had a book challenged which to me sounds like a lot.

What would that number have to look like to convince you its an issue? 2%? 5%? 50%?

 

[PhitePhan]

What does that mean exactly? Because you're not merely talking about references to sexual acts but references to non-normative sexuality from the POV of conservatives right? Presumably you wouldn't be against Disney princess movies being shown in schools just because the princess and the prince kiss?

I’m not a fan of Disney movies introducing sexuality to kids. Is kissing sexual? I think in some contexts it is, some it’s not… I’d prefer my kids not be introduced to kissing that is sexual at a young age. I try to model a healthy monogamous relationship for my kids because that’s what I hope they grow up to value and seek out.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I’m not a fan of Disney movies introducing sexuality to kids. Is kissing sexual? I think in some contexts it is, some it’s not… I’d prefer my kids not be introduced to kissing that is sexual at a young age. I try to model a healthy monogamous relationship for my kids because that’s what I hope they grow up to value and seek out.

Of course I'm referring to a kiss in a romantic context, you really think that's inappropriate for school age children? Showing them Aladdin introduces "sexuality" too young? If you're really that concerned by references to romance then why not take your kids to a Christian school or do homeschooling instead of trying to impose your particular values on the school?

 

[PhitePhan]

Of course I'm referring to a kiss in a romantic context, you really think that's inappropriate for school age children? Showing them Aladdin introduces "sexuality" too young? If you're really that concerned by references to romance then why not take your kids to a Christian school or do homeschooling instead of trying to impose your particular values on the school?

How about we just leave romance and sexuality out of grade school curriculum? What’s so hard about that?

 

[mkess101]

In the grand scheme of things 1% is a lot, that's why when we compile population level stats its usually using much finer measurements like the rate per 100,000. So we could re-contextualize that stat as 1,000 per 100,000 school districts have had a book challenged which to me sounds like a lot.

What would that number have to look like to convince you its an issue? 2%? 5%? 50%?

Considering the average amount of books in each library, even the ones that DID ban one book we're talking about one title out what, tens of thousands? So 1% of districts ban 1 title out of their thousands.

I don't know exactly what I'd consider it to be an issue worth paying attention to, but a lot more than it is now.