Social Joy Reid Defends Books with Pedophilia in Public School Librairies

[mkess101]

No but naturally you'll uncharitably interpret my post.

As I said before I am all for school choice so that parents have options if they disagree with how the local school is run, I just don't think its good to empower a minority of parents to harass schools because a 12 year old was exposed to The Creation of Adam and that in general its this impulse that represents the threat to education and not they/them memoirs in school libraries.

It wasn't a private school, it was a charter school.

The parents didn't have the power to unilaterally fire the principal but they helped create the conditions that led to her being ousted. There was more going on behind the scenes as both the principal and her employer mention but its clear that the incident with Michelangelo's David and the public attention the school received is what helped tip things against the principal.

Dude I'm not being uncharitable, I just don't really know what you want? Parents are gonna voice objections sometimes, even dumb ones. Sometimes they'll be influenced by outside groups. Parents should (and do) have the right to voice objections to something they deem inappropriate. And (assuming it's a minority of parents in that district that object) the school has the right to say "too bad".

 

[Rob Battisti]

Dude I'm not being uncharitable, I just don't really know what you want? Parents are gonna voice objections sometimes, even dumb ones. Sometimes they'll be influenced by outside groups. Parents should (and do) have the right to voice objections to something they deem inappropriate. And (assuming it's a minority of parents in that district that object) the school has the right to say "too bad".

This is the best opinion in this thread.

 

[Islam Imamate]

By school choice do you mean just leaving that school or like we agreed upon earlier the right to vote the board in?

I don't think a single person ITT has argued against the existence of an elected school board, this is some non-argument you keep harping on. And either way that's not mutually exclusive to allowing for school choice in the form of charter schools which are part of the wider public school system.

Dude I'm not being uncharitable, I just don't really know what you want?

Could've fooled me.

Parents are gonna voice objections sometimes, even dumb ones. Sometimes they'll be influenced by outside groups. Parents should (and do) have the right to voice objections to something they deem inappropriate. And (assuming it's a minority of parents in that district that object) the school has the right to say "too bad".

You're not really saying anything of substance here, no one really disagree that parents have speech rights that they can exercise at a school board meeting. The point is that a nationwide movement to impose a specific cultural vision upon schools is a greater threat to education than they/them memoirs tucked away in some corner of a library where the vast majority of students wouldn't have ever come across it if not for the Streisand effect following the moral panic about these books.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This is the best opinion in this thread.

Its a non-argument that doesn't address the points I was making but rather dances around them.

 

[brothir]

Notice how weak the arguments from the left are in comparison to the right? That's when you know who is right and wrong here. Their arguments have been downright embarrassing to say the least.

Apparently not only do schools now need to be in charge of teaching kids about morals, sexuality, sexual satisfaction and false gender theory but they also need to provide them the ability to read graphic sexual depictions of incestual molestation and sodomy because there is no other way to "educate" them other than through books that describe molestation as well as books that come complete with pictures of boys blowing each other.

In their minds, people MUST ensure that they expose other people's children to this material because it's good for them and there is no way to convey the message other than through these sexually explicit books. According to these radical leftists, there is no other way to educate children other than through these means. If you disagree, then you hate books and hate education. Kind of reminds you of the old "if you disagree, you're a Nazi" routine.

The issue with liberals is they cannot separate their own brain with the brain of a child. They think that the material their 30 year old mind can process and be educated with is the same material that children should be exposed to. They want 9 year olds to be exposed to adult themes to better "educate" them. Sounds pretty creepy, doesn't it?

Oh boy, this is a lot of wrong. I guess something you did get right is that schools should teach kids about morality and sexuality. There's no way to disentangle morality from how school functions: banning books is enforcing a moral paradigm in schools. Haven't seen anyone saying there's "no other way" to teach kids about various topics of sexuality, even unsavory ones, but that it's bad to ban books. Schools are free to not have books they think are too controversial of their own volition even if they aren't banned.

I definitely don't think children possess the same mental capacity as adults, which is why I obviously recognize different books are appropriate for elementary, middle and high school. You'd get more mileage out of this discussion if you could stop yourself from treating people on the left as mortal enemies and attributing views to them they don't have.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Its a non-argument that doesn't address the points I was making but rather dances around them.

I didn’t see what argument you were trying to make. The statement in and of itself is something you agree with, right?

 

[Rob Battisti]

I don't think a single person ITT has argued against the existence of an elected school board, this is some non-argument you keep harping on. And either way that's not mutually exclusive to allowing for school choice in the form of charter schools which are part of the wider public school system.

Could've fooled me.

You're not really saying anything of substance here, no one really disagree that parents have speech rights that they can exercise at a school board meeting. The point is that a nationwide movement to impose a specific cultural vision upon schools is a greater threat to education than they/them memoirs tucked away in some corner of a library where the vast majority of students wouldn't have ever come across it if not for the Streisand effect following the moral panic about these books.

Didn’t see your first quote. My bad.

Jack has called the guidelines imposed by the school board authoritarian so there is at least one people arguing against them being involved. I seem to recall you liking all those posts too.

 

[mkess101]

I don't think a single person ITT has argued against the existence of an elected school board, this is some non-argument you keep harping on. And either way that's not mutually exclusive to allowing for school choice in the form of charter schools which are part of the wider public school system.

Could've fooled me.

You're not really saying anything of substance here, no one really disagree that parents have speech rights that they can exercise at a school board meeting. The point is that a nationwide movement to impose a specific cultural vision upon schools is a greater threat to education than they/them memoirs tucked away in some corner of a library where the vast majority of students wouldn't have ever come across it if not for the Streisand effect following the moral panic about these books.

You think it's ME not saying anything of substance???

You don't like the influence of outside groups in pushing for certain things in schools. You acknowledge the rights of people to speak their voice. So...okay? I mean, you can yell at the clouds or whatever I guess about it?

Neither of the things you've mentioned are any sort of actual significant threat. If you're truly worried (and I don't know if you are), you could start an anti-moms 4 whatever group?

 

[Rob Battisti]

You think it's ME not saying anything of substance???

You don't like the influence of outside groups in pushing for certain things in schools. You acknowledge the rights of people to speak their voice. So...okay? I mean, you can yell at the clouds or whatever I guess about it?

Neither of the things you've mentioned are any sort of actual significant threat. If you're truly worried (and I don't know if you are), you could start an anti-moms 4 whatever group?

Agreed.

National groups argue for things as a matter of course. We’re allowed to disagree with them.

 

[Islam Imamate]

You think it's ME not saying anything of substance???

You don't like the influence of outside groups in pushing for certain things in schools. You acknowledge the rights of people to speak their voice. So...okay? I mean, you can yell at the clouds or whatever I guess about it?

Neither of the things you've mentioned are any sort of actual significant threat. If you're truly worried (and I don't know if you are), you could start an anti-moms 4 whatever group?

What a bad faith and obnoxious way to have a conversation. Using your logic here this whole thread is just yelling at clouds but saying that is silly since the whole point of a forum is to discuss things. In the context of this conversation I'm simply making the argument that this concerted nationwide effort to reduce discretion by educators is a greater threat to education than merely having they/them memoirs in a library. As I showed you in the case of the Tallahassee Classical School this kind of mentality can undermine educators and create an uninviting atmosphere for them which makes it harder to recruit good talent which hurts the day to day functioning of schools. Its not like I feel that strongly about it given all the issues in the world today but I do think this issue is emblematic of the rot on the right as evidenced by how it came even for a conservative school that was created precisely for these kinds of parents.

Part of the reason it does bother me is because I support school choice and want to see a healthy ecosystem of schools like the Tallahassee Classical School but the right in this country is less focused on making that a reality as much as they are on trying to gain power over educators so they can impose their preferred cultural vision. PhitePhan is arguing with you about that very point so its staring you in the face and yet you refuse to see it.

Didn’t see your first quote. My bad.

Jack has called the guidelines imposed by the school board authoritarian so there is at least one people arguing against them being involved. I seem to recall you liking all those posts too.

In the context of this discussion you seem to be arguing that educators should have less discretion while he's arguing they should have about as much as they did before this moral panic swept the nation. I'm generally with him because I think this moral panic is in bad faith and more about imposing certain cultural norms than it is about dealing with some real threat to children from they/them memoirs.

 

[mkess101]

What a bad faith and obnoxious way to have a conversation. Using your logic here this whole thread is just yelling at clouds but saying that is silly since the whole point of a forum is to discuss things. In the context of this conversation I'm simply making the argument that this concerted nationwide effort to reduce discretion by educators is a greater threat to education than merely having they/them memoirs in a library. As I showed you in the case of the Tallahassee Classical School this kind of mentality can undermine educators and create an uninviting atmosphere for them which makes it harder to recruit good talent which hurts the day to day functioning of schools. Its not like I feel that strongly about it given all the issues in the world today but I do think this issue is emblematic of the rot on the right as evidenced by how it came even for a conservative school that was created precisely for these kinds of parents.

In the context of this discussion you seem to be arguing that educators should have less discretion while he's arguing they should have about as much as they did before this moral panic swept the nation. I'm generally with him because I think this moral panic is in bad faith and more about imposing certain cultural norms than it is about dealing with some real threat to children from they/them memoirs.

Fine, probably shouldn't have made that comment. You're admitting though you don't think in the big scheme of things it's a huge deal. Me either.

We've all discussed it plenty I guess. Seems like a lot of back and forth to say "Wish the right wasn't trying to influence schools so much." "Yeah, well, wish the left didn't believe some of these book titles are appropriate. "

 

[Islam Imamate]

Fine, probably shouldn't have made that comment. You're admitting though you don't think in the big scheme of things it's a huge deal. Me either.

We've all discussed it plenty I guess. Seems like a lot of back and forth to say "Wish the right wasn't trying to influence schools so much." "Yeah, well, wish the left didn't believe some of these book titles are appropriate. "

Pretty dishonest way to frame my argument here. As I've said multiple times I want conservatives to build up their own healthy ecosystem of charter schools and private schools where they can have way more influence over how the schools are run when compared to public schools. And if they are successful in that it would inevitably have some impact over how public schools are run as they'd have to adapt to that new reality. And any area that has a strong conservative majority is likely to have a conservative school board as spamking pointed out earlier ITT.

I just think that this nationwide moral panic over "pornography" in schools is just a way for partisan culture warriors to browbeat school boards and educators into catering to their preferred cultural norms rather than any real concern over the harm that a they/them memoir or The Creation of Adam might have on a student.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Agreed.

National groups argue for things as a matter of course. We’re allowed to disagree with them.

What a bad faith and obnoxious way to have a conversation. Using your logic here this whole thread is just yelling at clouds but saying that is silly since the whole point of a forum is to discuss things. In the context of this conversation I'm simply making the argument that this concerted nationwide effort to reduce discretion by educators is a greater threat to education than merely having they/them memoirs in a library. As I showed you in the case of the Tallahassee Classical School this kind of mentality can undermine educators and create an uninviting atmosphere for them which makes it harder to recruit good talent which hurts the day to day functioning of schools. Its not like I feel that strongly about it given all the issues in the world today but I do think this issue is emblematic of the rot on the right as evidenced by how it came even for a conservative school that was created precisely for these kinds of parents.

Part of the reason it does bother me is because I support school choice and want to see a healthy ecosystem of schools like the Tallahassee Classical School but the right in this country is less focused on making that a reality as much as they are on trying to gain power over educators so they can impose their preferred cultural vision. PhitePhan is arguing with you about that very point so its staring you in the face and yet you refuse to see it.

In the context of this discussion you seem to be arguing that educators should have less discretion while he's arguing they should have about as much as they did before this moral panic swept the nation. I'm generally with him because I think this moral panic is in bad faith and more about imposing certain cultural norms than it is about dealing with some real threat to children from they/them memoirs.

I’m not arguing for that at all.

On a case by case basis, communities should be aware of the content in their children’s schools and vote for boards which represent the kind of content they wish their children to be exposed to.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I’m not arguing for that at all.

On a case by case basis, communities should be aware of the content in their children’s schools and vote for boards which represent the kind of content they wish their children to be exposed to.

So then you should probably be against Moms 4 Liberty whose members challenge books in school districts they don't live in.

The district also said it would not consider other book challenges by the woman, Lauren DePaola, 42, the founder and former leader of the county chapter of Moms for Liberty, the conservative Florida-based organization that has campaigned for more parental input over what schools teach and less classroom discussion about race, gender and sexuality. DePaola is still listed as an administrator for the Moms for Liberty chapter's Facebook group.

In a letter to DePaola, school district staff attorney Susan M. Seigle cited news reporting two weeks ago by WUFT, the public media station operated out of the University of Florida College of Journalism and Communications. That reporting showed DePaola and her husband had sold their home in Alachua County and purchased a home in neighboring Gilchrist County in April 2022, and that DePaola was a registered voter in Gilchrist County who voted in person there on Election Day on Nov. 8 last year. DePaola was still registered to vote in Gilchrist County this week, records showed.

"This raises doubt as to whether you have lived in Alachua County for a year prior to making your objections," Seigle wrote. She added that DePaola does not have any children enrolled in public schools. Under the district’s rules, parents whose children attend schools here can file objections regardless of their residency.

In the letter, the district recounted its own, earlier efforts to confirm DePaola's residency in Alachua County, including a back-and-forth with her over the address where she was living. The district said after three requests, DePaola provided the address of a home she and her husband did not own. "We assumed you were renters, and permitted the objection to be determined," Seigle wrote.

https://www.wusf.org/education/2023...ecision-putting-lgbtq-book-back-library-shelf

Surely you don't think its proper for someone outside the county who doesn't even have kids in public schools to challenge what books can and can't be in the district library right? In light of these kinds of stories don't you think it makes sense to be skeptical of these kinds of groups when they are willing to abuse the good faith of school boards and educators to try to remove books from public school libraries in districts they don't even live in?

 

[RoastBeast]

Bizarre take. What, exactly, is the rightist argument? Just "seems self-evident to me that the gov't should control this, and we don't need any evidence or logic," no?

The right wing take is there should not be inappropriate material in school libraries. Period.

If that is bizarre to you then you need to get your head checked.

 

[mkess101]

Pretty dishonest way to frame my argument here. As I've said multiple times I want conservatives to build up their own healthy ecosystem of charter schools and private schools where they can have way more influence over how the schools are run when compared to public schools. And if they are successful in that it would inevitably have some impact over how public schools are run as they'd have to adapt to that new reality. And any area that has a strong conservative majority is likely to have a conservative school board as spamking pointed out earlier ITT.

I just think that this nationwide moral panic over "pornography" in schools is just a way for partisan culture warriors to browbeat school boards and educators into catering to their preferred cultural norms rather than any real concern over the harm that a they/them memoir or The Creation of Adam might have on a student.

Dude, it's not dishonest. I haven't seen those posts from you (doesn't mean they aren't there, I just haven't read every part of every post in this thread). Seems like you didn't want these groups like moms 4 whatever trying to influence thing so much.

Everything isn't an attack on you LOL.

 

[Rob Battisti]

So then you should probably be against Moms 4 Liberty whose members challenge books in school districts they don't live in.

https://www.wusf.org/education/2023...ecision-putting-lgbtq-book-back-library-shelf

Surely you don't think its proper for someone outside the county who doesn't even have kids in public schools to challenge what books can and can't be in the district library right? In light of these kinds of stories don't you think it makes sense to be skeptical of these kinds of groups when they are willing to abuse the good faith of school boards and educators to try to remove books from public school libraries in districts they don't even live in?

I’ve repeatedly said I don’t love the idea of outsiders inserting themselves into local community issues.

In this case, or any case.

 

[Jack V Savage]

The right wing take is there should not be inappropriate material in school libraries. Period.

If that is bizarre to you then you need to get your head checked.

What's the *argument*? You said they had better arguments. Your post contains a logical fallacy, BTW.

 

[RoastBeast]

Oh boy, this is a lot of wrong. I guess something you did get right is that schools should teach kids about morality and sexuality. There's no way to disentangle morality from how school functions: banning books is enforcing a moral paradigm in schools. Haven't seen anyone saying there's "no other way" to teach kids about various topics of sexuality, even unsavory ones, but that it's bad to ban books. Schools are free to not have books they think are too controversial of their own volition even if they aren't banned.

I definitely don't think children possess the same mental capacity as adults, which is why I obviously recognize different books are appropriate for elementary, middle and high school. You'd get more mileage out of this discussion if you could stop yourself from treating people on the left as mortal enemies and attributing views to them they don't have.

They'll stop being enemies when they stop advocating for children to read about the pleasures of incestual sodomy and books depicting people blowing each other.

You do realize that books have always been banned from school libraries, right? Inappropriate books for minors not being allowed in public school libraries is something that has always been enforced and is not some new thing, despite what the left wing media wants you to believe. Decades have past with basically no one ever arguing about what should and should not be in school libraries because we all agreed that inappropriate material should not be in their libraries. Only lately have left wingers been pushing for overtly sexual material to be in school libraries. Which side do you want to be on?

Schools are not and have never been in the business of teaching morality. There is no morality class, nor morality subject. If a kid misbehaves, they correct them and tell them to treat their classmates with respect. Morality is something that parents teach their kids because we all clearly have different ideas of what is moral and what isn't. I don't think it's moral to give kids access to inappropriate sexual material but a lot of left wingers do. This argument is about the left's version of what they think is moral and they want their version taught to every kid in the public school system.

 

[RoastBeast]

What's the *argument*? You said they had better arguments. Your post contains a logical fallacy, BTW.

My post is fine. Yours are normally littered with gaslighting and dishonesty and I'm sure you're just about ready to head down that road here.

The rightist argument is that we should not be subjecting underage kids to sexually inappropriate material. I don't need to form an argument around that. No further debate is required. It's pretty gross if you require someone to make a case as to why we should not be subjecting underage minors to sexually inappropriate material. It's common sense and it has been for decades until radical liberals started pushing their creepy agendas on other people's kids.