International Active US Air Force member self-immolates outside Israel Embassy in Washington

[Rational Poster]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the intense emotional reaction to someone giving their life in the name for a cause... It's hard for me to believe that people have ever even given this enough thought to have strong opinions.

Most people that live in a democratic system think that suicide for political reasons is pretty pointless given the endless avenues to express yourself without actually killing yourself.

 

[TheMaster]

Most people that live in a democratic system think that suicide for political reasons is pretty pointless given the endless avenues to express yourself without actually killing yourself.

Somehow I dont think him holding a stop the war placard outside the Israel embassy would have had remotely near the same impact.

 

[Blayt7hh]

It isn't a logical for a person to be inspired by this man's sacrifice and analyze data better and come to a different conclusion.

It isn't a logical fallacy for a person who gut reacted and came to a position to see this mans sacrifice and actually read the data and come to a different conclusion.

It isn't the logical fallacy for this man's sacrifice to help a person realize the gravity of what is happening, even if they don't come to a different conclusion about what is right and wrong in the situation.

Under your impossible position, all of these are logical fallacies and I know this because I've already given these examples to you and you've not changed your position.

I have to think you are arguing in bad faith or are not intelligent enough to see that you're wrong, but either way it's no fun talking to a person that can't have honest or intelligent dialogue.

Lol my God dude. You just keep repeating yourself hoping that this time you will be right. Why do you think that that is going to work?

All of this has been addressed in previous posts. You know this. Stop being such a dishonest pos that you hope to just repeat yourself a week later to look right. Stop trying to revise history with other posters. You did this a week ago and tried to tag someone in you thought would agree with you and HE DID NOT.

Time to tap out of the thread. Clearly you're never going to admit you were wrong even though you know you were, but letting everyone else know how stupid you are isn't going to improve the situation. The quotes all still exist bud and can just quote them again.

Honestly the mods should probably just consider you as spamming at this point

 

[Rational Poster]

Somehow I dont think him holding a stop the war placard outside the Israel embassy would have had remotely near the same impact.

I mean his death has also had zero impact, so why go that far?

 

[TheMaster]

I mean his death has also had zero impact, so why go that far?

Hardly. Theres been widespread vigils for it and its had global media attention. You dont know what the wider and longer term impact may be.

 

[terrapin]

[

Lol my God dude. You just keep repeating yourself hoping that this time you will be right. Why do you think that that is going to work?

All of this has been addressed in previous posts. You know this. Stop being such a dishonest pos that you hope to just repeat yourself a week later to look right. Stop trying to revise history with other posters. You did this a week ago and tried to tag someone in you thought would agree with you and HE DID NOT.

Time to tap out of the thread. Clearly you're never going to admit you were wrong even though you know you were, but letting everyone else know how stupid you are isn't going to improve the situation. The quotes all still exist bud and can just quote them again.

Actually, you're only response to my specific examples has been to post the definition again, but that isn't an argument at all.

You've actually never made a specific response to any of the examples I have given that would not have been logical fallacies. It is a lie to say you have.

If a person is inspired by this mans sacrifice to analyze the data more clearly and finds his initial position was wrong they have not committed a logical fallacy, but under your absurd position you think they have. It would also not be a logical fallacy for a person who never really looked at the data to be moved by this man's sacrifice look at the data deeply and change their position.

But we could and have given many more examples than this.


I don't think you actually believe your position. I just think that through pride you are sticking to an absurd argument, but maybe you really arent intelligent enough to understand when there is not a logical fallacy involved. But either way it's been no fun discussing with you because there's not been honest or intelligent dialogue.

 

[Rational Poster]

Hardly. Theres been widespread vigils for it and its had global media attention. You dont know what the wider and longer term impact may be.

Last I checked war is still going on, Hamas still refusing to release the hostages, a few thousand people out of billions holding a vigil isn't going to change anything, just like killing yourself for a political cause isn't going to change anything.

It had global media attention for like 2 days, it's been a week and everyone has moved on.

I don't know what wider and longer term impact may be, but neither do you and I think close to zero is more accurate than any other guess you could make.

 

[terrapin]

Hardly. Theres been widespread vigils for it and its had global media attention. You dont know what the wider and longer term impact may be.

According to @Blayt7hh anybody who changes their position after being inspired by this man for any reason at all has committed a logical fallacy. No matter what example you give him, he will state it was a logical fallacy!!

I have given him multiple examples where a person might be moved by this man's sacrifice to look into the situation more deeply and change their position and he says that is still a logical fallacy!

Apparently you can't change your mind at all in this situation because of this man sacrifice without it being a logical fallacy. No matter how much new data you take in before changing it.


It seems to be almost a magical position that he holds.

 

[TheMaster]

But clearly the comparison to the monk was surface level and lazy. The monk wasn’t acting unstable on Twitter prior to doing it. The monk wasn’t copying another famous protest. The monk didn’t immediate collapse and start screaming when the fire was lit.

The monks protest echoes through time for a few reasons that this one doesn’t have. Bushnell’s will last until people get tired of memeing it. You can get mad at me about it if you want, it I’m just telling you how it is

He didnt immediately collapse and start screaming, theres a powerful image of him standing whilst aflame before he fell.

And he wasnt 'acting unstable' before, he voiced his valid opinions.
Attempts to discredit the validity of his act by implying he was mentally unsound rather than legitimately and validly protesting the US military involvement in this attrociously barbaric war, wont work.
He made an extreme self sacrifice and there are many who can understand and empathise with it, including and especially many US military veterans.

 

[Blayt7hh]

This entire take is way off on so many levels.

First up theres plenty in the Western and non-western world protesting this who are not directly involved. Self immolating may be an extreme, but its an act of protest.

Secondly the US military is directly involved in this conflict. They are complicit. I dont know if you have had your head in the sand but the US military industrial complex has been arming Israel heavily. Thats people involved in building weapons and American military sending them and training people to use them, which are often used to kill small children and women. Its just that most people are so removed and dissociated from this reality like you, it doesnt seem to resonate. This man, being in the military himself felt close to it and therefore felt extensive guilt by association which is what drove him to commit this act.

The US military is not directly involved. They are indirectly involved in that they are keeping other outside actors from getting involved. They are not directly attacking Palestine. They also are not arming Israel- that is the US government and the MIC. The military itself is a different entity.

However, Bushnell did CLAIM to his friends that the US military was directly involved. He claimed he had seen videos of SF operators clearing tunnels in Palestine for the IDF.

This is a problem for all of you deep sacrifice nonsense posters in here, @terrapin , @blackheart and @TheMaster . You all seem to think that suicide was the best course of action for him to be heard, and that he came to this decision rationally. But now its clear that there was a lot of erratic behavior prior to this event, such as the claim he made.

You can argue that he wasn't crazy. But then you have to ask, why didn't he try to make these videos public? Surely that would have gone a lot further with the American people if they saw they were being lied to about our involvement if his goal really was to change people's minds about our complicity in the conflict? Surely he could have tried to do a Chelsea Manning or at the very least tell someone that was in a position to make this knowledge public?

Of course, we know that it's almost certainly nonsense that these videos existed. So now the question is why are you guys cheering on the suicide of a man that clearly needed some help? You that desperate and selfish to score points on the internet? And if you guys think that this is such a rational and morally righteous course of action, why aren't you considering it for yourselves? Content to let the unstable people do it for you?

 

[terrapin]

The US military is not directly involved. They are indirectly involved in that they are keeping other outside actors from getting involved. They are not directly attacking Palestine. They also are not arming Israel- that is the US government and the MIC. The military itself is a different entity.

However, Bushnell did CLAIM to his friends that the US military was directly involved. He claimed he had seen videos of SF operators clearing tunnels in Palestine for the IDF.

This is a problem for all of you deep sacrifice nonsense posters in here, @terrapin , @blackheart and @TheMaster . You all seem to think that suicide was the best course of action for him to be heard, and that he came to this decision rationally. But now its clear that there was a lot of erratic behavior prior to this event, such as the claim he made.

You can argue that he wasn't crazy. But then you have to ask, why didn't he try to make these videos public? Surely that would have gone a lot further with the American people if they saw they were being lied to about our involvement if his goal really was to change people's minds about our complicity in the conflict? Surely he could have tried to do a Chelsea Manning or at the very least tell someone that was in a position to make this knowledge public?

Of course, we know that it's almost certainly nonsense that these videos existed. So now the question is why are you guys cheering on the suicide of a man that clearly needed some help? You that desperate and selfish to score points on the internet? And if you guys think that this is such a rational and morally righteous course of action, why aren't you considering it for yourselves? Content to let the unstable people do it for you?

Pretty ballsy of you to think our position is absurd when you actually believe that if anybody changes their mind for any reason after this mans sacrifice, it will be a logical fallacy to do so... even if they take in new data as a result of his sacrifice!!!

But you also have mistated my position. I'm not coming from a place of certainty. I'm just saying that deep selfless love could have been his motivation and that kind of motivation has deep power to transform other people's minds and hearts.

 

[HereticBD]

Somehow I dont think him holding a stop the war placard outside the Israel embassy would have had remotely near the same impact.

Literally the same impact, which would be no impact at all.

 

[TheMaster]

The US military is not directly involved. They are indirectly involved in that they are keeping other outside actors from getting involved. They are not directly attacking Palestine. They also are not arming Israel- that is the US government and the MIC. The military itself is a different entity.

The government, the military and the military industrial complex can be seen as being part of the same larger entity. Thats how these things generally work and they are heavily interlinked.

However, Bushnell did CLAIM to his friends that the US military was directly involved. He claimed he had seen videos of SF operators clearing tunnels in Palestine for the IDF.

Quite possible, and he would certainly be in a position to know that much more than you would.

So now the question is why are you guys cheering on the suicide of a man that clearly needed some help?

No one here is or has been 'cheering him on'. We however recognize it as a valid form of extreme protest and can understand it and see it may have far reaching larger impact.

 

[scoopj]

That's not what an ad hominem is idiot. I just explained this to you. Stop humiliating yourself.

Get fucked loser. You’re not very bright.

 

[Blayt7hh]

The government, the military and the military industrial complex can be seen as being part of the same larger entity. Thats how these things generally work and they are heavily interlinked.

Erroneously linked, maybe. The MIC is a civilian enterprise. The military is a part of the larger entity as an arm of the government. It might seem like I am nitpicking, but it's an important distinction you need to understand to grasp just how damning the allegeded video would be if it existed.

Quite possible, and he would certainly be in a position to know that much more than you would.

Negative. I know it was extremely unlikely given that his job was cyber defense, that he was very low ranking, and the fact that this video would be sent to SOCOM intel units and not just some Air Force base. You can smell the BS on this one with some prior knowledge of how these things work.

No one here is or has been 'cheering him on'. We however recognize it as a valid form of extreme protest and can understand it and see it may have far reaching larger impact.

You're arguing with people who don't think it is a good way to protest saying it is. No one is saying it's not a protest, theyre saying they don't agree with it. By arguing you are saying it was a good way for him to protest, hence "cheering him on".

Now I've basically given you two choices- either he was mentally unstable o he actually did have access to proof of direct involvement and chose a poor way to protest instead of exposing that. It is one of the other. So which is it?

 

[Scerpi]

Pretty ballsy of you to think our position is absurd when you actually believe that if anybody changes their mind for any reason after this mans sacrifice, it will be a logical fallacy to do so... even if they take in new data as a result of his sacrifice!!!

But you also have mistated my position. I'm not coming from a place of certainty. I'm just saying that deep selfless love could have been his motivation and that kind of motivation has deep power to transform other people's minds and hearts.

lol...

Maybe, just maybe... someone, somewhere might change their mind.

Totally worth this lunatic dousing himself with gasoline and setting himself on fire.

Clownworld

 

[Blayt7hh]

You could go on, but this is a massive fail.

Almost every example you gave was about him drawing attention to the topic to people who hadn’t thought about it before. I said that that’s all it should reasonably be able to do in MY FIRST FUCKING POST TO YOU.

The others, literally the very first logical fallacy I pointed out to you.

JFC dude. Literally every one of those stories you typed up. How have you not learned what an appeal to emotion is yet?

The burden of proof is not on me. You clearly have not bothered to google that fallacy.

Actually, you're only response to my specific examples has been to post the definition again,

Lol. I don't even need to type anything new to you. Just quote myself and prove you're lying.

For the ones that were an appeal to emotion, I really don't know what you want me to do. It is an appeal to emotion. It is cut and dry. It had been explained to you how it was an appeal to emotion prior to this post, not just a definition. You simply don't have the intelligence or education to understand it. I can't help you with that personal failing.

 

[kflo]

Pretty ballsy of you to think our position is absurd when you actually believe that if anybody changes their mind for any reason after this mans sacrifice, it will be a logical fallacy to do so... even if they take in new data as a result of his sacrifice!!!

But you also have mistated my position. I'm not coming from a place of certainty. I'm just saying that deep selfless love could have been his motivation and that kind of motivation has deep power to transform other people's minds and hearts.

lol.

the idea that this act wasn't absurd is actually frightening. especially coming from inside the US. not surprised to see terrapin digging in though.

 

[kflo]

The government, the military and the military industrial complex can be seen as being part of the same larger entity. Thats how these things generally work and they are heavily interlinked.



Quite possible, and he would certainly be in a position to know that much more than you would.


No one here is or has been 'cheering him on'. We however recognize it as a valid form of extreme protest and can understand it and see it may have far reaching larger impact.

it's not a "valid form" and anyone suggesting so is insane. it's supporting, encouraging even, others to use this as a valid form of protest for international policy within the US. and that's incredibly irresponsible. at least he only took himself down.......

 

[spamking]

He argues for absurdity.