Social Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court

[therealdope]

So I worked in stockton for about a decade. people don't go to the homeless shelters because they don't want to relinquish their drugs and liquor, so they end up sleeping in parks, etc. or jamming up local ER's.

Occasionally they migrate to the rural areas surrounding the valley and are swiftly cited for trespassing, loitering, etc etc and they return to the cities where it is allowed.

You have to address mental health. You have to address addiction. These people have options (on a whole) but choose drugs/alcohol or aren't in good enough mental capacity to make good decisions. High prevalence of sex offenses, high prevalence of theft, drug use, etc etc in public parks and ruining neighborhoods.

The biggest mistake people make is thinking homeless people are just down on their luck and being picked on. It's much more nuanced than that and I'd wager the vast majority of people you see on the streets walking about aren't down on their luck, it's a combination of mental health/addiction 3/4 of the time or more.



you don't. it's a fine because it's an infraction, which are punished via fines. you still don't get to repeat the behavior.

This guy nailed it on every point.

 

[therealdope]

The likely response will be homeless shelters. But what from what I hear it's not always great to live in a shelter. You are living around a bunch of people who are probably on drugs and crazy. Sooner or later you'll get your s*** robbed or be attacked by another bum

If you're homeless on the street you'll eventually get robbed and even worse assaulted. The main reason there are homeless that don't go to shelters is the curfew and no drugs/alcohol.

 

[ferrisjso]

If you're homeless on the street you'll eventually get robbed and even worse assaulted. The main reason there are homeless that don't go to shelters is the curfew and no drugs/alcohol.

Trying to tell people who have a home they can't have alchohol or legal drugs wouldn't be tolerated. Why should the homeless tolerate it? You're acting like thats a reasonable request for people whove lost everything. It absolutley isn't.

If someone is homeless it means they are likely resistant to control and thats part of why they deserve so much respect. Why tf would a grown adult happily accept a curfew?

You're acting as if these aren't poision pills and the homeless are being unreasonable. They are choosing to be homeless because they find it to be better than the alternatives. And the people making the alternatives worse than homelessness know that.

 

[jefferz]

Good idea. That way if they ever do get a job and try to get back on their feet we can take it from them

And let's make sure we give them a record so they have an even harder time trying to find a job to get them out of the situation they're in.

 

[Andy Capp]

In the western world, we should be criminalizing politicians for even having homelessness. Not that it should be a free for all, but there's really no excuse for it in the west with all our resources. A war breaks out a million miles away, and the government is all of sudden tripping over billions and billions of dollars that they previously said they didn't have to help their own population, to help another people's population.

A large part of the difficulty with that is the people electing the politicians (and paying their salary indirectly through property taxes) are NIMBYs. Taking the topic of the OP for example, the town (or state) mainly wants to just ship them out of town instead of housing them "because reasons".

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Trying to tell people who have a home they can't have alchohol or legal drugs wouldn't be tolerated. Why should the homeless tolerate it?

Since when is heroin legal?

 

[ferrisjso]

Since when is heroin legal?

I say legal drugs should be allowed and you bring up the worst illegal drug.

 

[ferrisjso]

Good idea. That way if they ever do get a job and try to get back on their feet we can take it from them

If people on disability get employment(even if its just supplemental income) they lose their disability and almost always become homeless. Employment is only promoted when the employee needs it to survive all other forms of employment are discouraged.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

I say legal drugs should be allowed and you bring up the worst illegal drug.

It's heroin they're on. What legal drug do you think is driving the homeless crisis? It's heroin.

 

[ferrisjso]

It's heroin they're on. What legal drug do you think is driving the homeless crisis? It's heroin.

So when I'm saying okay they shouldn't be allowed to do heroin more than any non homeless person your response is to ignore the fact I conceded that and just repeat yourself. Because you're using heroin as a dragnet to control the whole homeless population.

Same way the anti immigrant folks use the undocumented murderers as an excuse to go after the whole group or anti trans people use trans athletes in female sports to go after the whole group. If people find targeting a minority unreasonable you're picking a minority of that minority where people will change their minds and then trying to conflate the whole group with them.

 

[Renard]

It's a bit more complicated than just dealing with the homeless people. American society creates these people in the first place. It's a dog-eat-dog culture with very few social safety nets. It's inevitable that some people lose the "game" and can't keep up. In another country they would be offered state-funded housing, free drug rehabilitation programs, some form of mental health help, and so on. Their odds of getting out of their situation would be much higher, and at the very least they would be out of sight. Leaders in the US have decided they'd rather spend money on things like nukes and free money to Ukraine. This decision means that, on the back-end, all citizens have to deal with homeless people squatting everywhere as they don't have anything better available. Karens can move signposts all they want, outraged that they can't use their parks, but at the end of the day that's not a problem a small town can fix. Only the federal level could, but they're not interested in doing that, very clearly. There's infinite money for other things, but not for helping their own citizens. Even the town knows they can't fix it; their strategy is to make being a homeless person in that particular town so annoying that they pack bags and move elsewhere - just kicking the problem somewhere else.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

So when I'm saying okay they shouldn't be allowed to do heroin more than any non homeless person your response is to ignore the fact I conceded that and just repeat yourself. Because you're using heroin as a dragnet to control the whole homeless population.

Maybe it's different where you live but where I grew up, the problematic homeless people are all on heroin. That's why they're homeless and that's why they're willing to commit so many crimes - to get their next fix.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

It's a bit more complicated than just dealing with the homeless people. American society creates these people in the first place. It's a dog-eat-dog culture with very few social safety nets. It's inevitable that some people lose the "game" and can't keep up. In another country they would be offered state-funded housing, free drug rehabilitation programs, some form of mental health help, and so on.

Then why is there so much homelessness in Canada where they get all the support you listed and still choose to live on the street committing crimes and doing heroin all day?

 

[ferrisjso]

Maybe it's different where you live but where I grew up, the problematic homeless people are all on heroin. That's why they're homeless and that's why they're willing to commit so many crimes - to get their next fix.

Don't you think if they were all on heroin they'd mostly be dead in short order?

Serious question? Even with a home do you think heroin junkies are going to survive for years and years? Even before fentanyl which could kill anyone at any time. So no they're not all on heroin you're looking at desperate miscombobulated people and coming to the conclusion they are on the heroin.

 

[Renard]

Then why is there so much homelessness in Canada where they get all the support you listed and still choose to live on the street committing crimes and doing heroin all day?

Recently shelters have been overrun by economic migrants that hopped the border from the US. Toronto conceded that 50% of their beds were being used by migrants. There was also an older study (prior migrant fiasco, so local homeless people) which found that homeless people in Canada have a very high rate of mental illness, much higher than the US. From what I remember it was around 66%. Depending on the diagnosis (e.g. schizophrenia) they may be literally unable to take advantage of the help offered. The US has more economic homeless people, people that could be rehabilitated if given the opportunity.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Recently shelters have been overrun by economic migrants that hopped the border from the US. Toronto conceded that 50% of their beds were being used by migrants. There was also an older study (prior migrant fiasco, so local homeless people) which found that homeless people in Canada have a very high rate of mental illness, much higher than the US. From what I remember it was around 66%. Depending on the diagnosis (e.g. schizophrenia) they may be literally unable to take advantage of the help offered. The US has more economic homeless people, people that could be rehabilitated if given the opportunity.

This was a huge issue in Canada long before the influx of migrants.

 

[Andy Capp]

I don't know if some you people don't realize. But about 90% of these homeless people are mentally unwell/unstable. No one wants to choose this lifestyle, if they had a choice. A lot of these guys have severe mental illness, so please be more empathetic to their situation.

I don't think it's that high a proportion although given comorbidity I guess it's likely that people who end up homeless for nearly any reason are likely to develop depression and/or other mental illnesses (e.g. anxiety). But there are disabled people and others with all sorts of medical issues that make it hard to hold down a job who end up homeless due simply to lack of local resources to help them.

Someone else suggested the proportion was closer to 70-30. I'd say it may be closer to 60-40, the latter being people who ended up homeless for a primary reason other than mental illness. I admit I believe that due to the large number of other causes and I think there are a lot of people living in cars who may not properly accounted for, but I confess I don't have any empirical data. I'm also not sure people ITT appreciate how many people are just one unexpected expense from not being able to pay their rent either, come to think of it.

My point? I perceive an attempt by several people ITT (not by you, I must add) to paint all homeless as mentally ill violent drug addicts so as to provide an excuse to treat them like refuse that needs to be disposed of rather than providing effective help.

Speaking of effective help, here in my province, PEI, Canada, the province is building new apartments where the rent will be tied to income, so the residents will spend no more than 25% of their income on rent. The rest will be covered by the province. There won't be nearly enough units built to fully serve the need, but it's a start. I hope disabled people are given priority.

 

[Scheme]

I still find it crazy that usa doesnt have free healthcare when even poor countries like russia have it and you can end up in trouble only due to health problem

(Of course free healtcare comes out of taxes so not completely free)

America has free healthcare for old people and poor people.

 

[Andy Capp]

America has free healthcare for old people and poor people.

Do you have any data on how many needy people are not able to access that care for one reason or another?

 

[Scheme]

It's a bit more complicated than just dealing with the homeless people. American society creates these people in the first place. It's a dog-eat-dog culture with very few social safety nets. It's inevitable that some people lose the "game" and can't keep up. In another country they would be offered state-funded housing, free drug rehabilitation programs, some form of mental health help, and so on. Their odds of getting out of their situation would be much higher, and at the very least they would be out of sight. Leaders in the US have decided they'd rather spend money on things like nukes and free money to Ukraine. This decision means that, on the back-end, all citizens have to deal with homeless people squatting everywhere as they don't have anything better available. Karens can move signposts all they want, outraged that they can't use their parks, but at the end of the day that's not a problem a small town can fix. Only the federal level could, but they're not interested in doing that, very clearly. There's infinite money for other things, but not for helping their own citizens. Even the town knows they can't fix it; their strategy is to make being a homeless person in that particular town so annoying that they pack bags and move elsewhere - just kicking the problem somewhere else.

List of sovereign states by homeless population - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Plenty of countries with homeless rates above US, including plenty of European countries, Australia and Canada.