Cardio or Weights? Which is more beneficial?

[maximus__]

Strongfirst is doing some really cool stuff with strength endurance and work capacity, which gives you all the benefits listed under both modalities. Simple & Sinister, Iron Cardio, their BJJ Fanatics program, and several other programs will get you strong as hell and let you be explosive for hours.

No they won't. They will get you good at swinging a kettlebell.

I enjoy the work and that style of training, but relying on the "WTH" effect to say this works, isn't good enough.
It's less effective than just lifting weights, running and doing some plyo style jumping and throws would be.

It's good as a part of a program, but their minimalist programs aren't really effective long term as a stand alone. It's why they don't have any really successful athletes outside of their own competitions.

Just my opinion after following all these different programs over the years and 15+ years of Kettlebell training.

 

[don't ask]

No they won't. They will get you good at swinging a kettlebell.

I enjoy the work and that style of training, but relying on the "WTH" effect to say this works, isn't good enough.
It's less effective than just lifting weights, running and doing some plyo style jumping and throws would be.

It's good as a part of a program, but their minimalist programs aren't really effective long term as a stand alone. It's why they don't have any really successful athletes outside of their own competitions.

Just my opinion after following all these different programs over the years and 15+ years of Kettlebell training.

I only listed one program that had kettlebell swings. You literally have no idea what the focus of their current programming is.

 

[NoSmilez]

Probably a little bit of both. I would say strength training and 30 minutes of cardio daily. It also depends what is your lifestyle. Americans don't really walk so they benefit from that 30 minutes of cardio.

 

[maximus__]

I only listed one program that had kettlebell swings. You literally have no idea what the focus of their current programming is.

They just released a book that is only kettlebell swings.

I own every Strongfirst book and most of Pavels Dragon door work. They are trying to apply maffetone style heart rate training using kettlebell ballistics to get strong, explosive, aerobically and anaerobically fit by avoiding doing hard work. Add in the occasional grind as they call it to maintain/improve limit strength and over reaching session or "double espresso" from memory.

Don't get me wrong it's better than a body builder bro split, but the reality is at some point you need to do "insert other activity" to get good at that activity. You can't swing a kettlebell to be a good runner for example, as much as they try and say that's the case.

 

[don't ask]

They just released a book that is only kettlebell swings.

I own every Strongfirst book and most of Pavels Dragon door work. They are trying to apply maffetone style heart rate training using kettlebell ballistics to get strong, explosive, aerobically and anaerobically fit by avoiding doing hard work. Add in the occasional grind as they call it to maintain/improve limit strength and over reaching session or "double espresso" from memory.

Don't get me wrong it's better than a body builder bro split, but the reality is at some point you need to do "insert other activity" to get good at that activity. You can't swing a kettlebell to be a good runner for example, as much as they try and say that's the case.

It sounds like you own two (at most) Strongfirst books and are pretending you know everything about their programs.

"By avoiding doing hard work" is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. You can't even summarize the books you've read.

 

[maximus__]

It sounds like you own two (at most) Strongfirst books and are pretending you know everything about their programs.

"By avoiding doing hard work" is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. You can't even summarize the books you've read.

I don't think I know everything at all, but I would say I have reasonable knowledge of their systems and approach to endurance.

I have followed that style of training since the Dragondoor days. I have owned every Pavel book at some point in my life and completed most of the training programs within them. I have followed the training programs of most people who came up in that system at some point.

I have not completed every program in Beyond Bodybuilding because that's borderline impossible. I own all the available training books from Strongfirst except Deadlift dynamite and just like the old RKC, they have their certification, which has more in depth info around the anti glycolitic work or focus of that certification. All of these books could have been a training article like the amazing ones that make up Beyond bodybuilding.

The end result is still that it's predominantly anecdotal evidence with some fancy graphs to sell the WTH effect.

The good thing is the books are only $10 on Amazon, so atleast it's a reasonable price compared to what they used to be.

Edit: I actually own Deadlift dynamite, I bought it years ago and just never read it. Maybe I will read it today.

 

[don't ask]

I don't think I know everything at all, but I would say I have reasonable knowledge of their systems and approach to endurance.

I have followed that style of training since the Dragondoor days. I have owned every Pavel book at some point in my life and completed most of the training programs within them. I have followed the training programs of most people who came up in that system at some point.

I have not completed every program in Beyond Bodybuilding because that's borderline impossible. I own all the available training books from Strongfirst except Deadlift dynamite and just like the old RKC, they have their certification, which has more in depth info around the anti glycolitic work or focus of that certification. All of these books could have been a training article like the amazing ones that make up Beyond bodybuilding.

The end result is still that it's predominantly anecdotal evidence with some fancy graphs to sell the WTH effect.

The good thing is the books are only $10 on Amazon, so atleast it's a reasonable price compared to what they used to be.

No, you're either a liar or you don't know how to read.

You are making a lot of ignorant statements that sound like you haven't actually read their Strongfirst books. Saying their training will make you better at kettlebell swings or avoids hard work is idiotic and incorrect, ignoring a) all their products/programs, and b) ignoring what it actually says in the books you claim to have read. Saying their recent kettlebell swing books could have been articles (and are full of anecdotes) really sounds like you didn't read them and are recycling criticism from the DragonDoor days.

You have no idea what their current products are, what their focus is, or what tools / exercises they're using.

 

[maximus__]

No, you're either a liar or you don't know how to read.

You are making a lot of ignorant statements that sound like you haven't actually read their Strongfirst books. Saying their training will make you better at kettlebell swings or avoids hard work is idiotic and incorrect, ignoring a) all their products/programs, and b) ignoring what it actually says in the books you claim to have read. Saying their recent kettlebell swing books could have been articles (and are full of anecdotes) really sounds like you didn't read them and are recycling criticism from the DragonDoor days.

You have no idea what their current products are, what their focus is, or what tools / exercises they're using.

The criticisms are valid.

I have followed the programs for years for periods, but they aren't sufficient to be called "cardio" (cardiac output or aerobic training). You can't build a high level aerobic base by swinging a kettlebell for reps each minute or even snatching one.

They could easily condense all of those books into an article length piece. They literally do it in the summary chapter of every book. I won't post the programs here out of respect, but the majority of the books are just random anecdotes.

Pavel has written the same style book for years, a minimalist program to achieve every goal, that could be summed up in a couple pages. They are ok to do for a general strength program, but the current iterations aren't "cardio " training as much as they want to sell it as that.

 

[don't ask]

The criticisms are valid.

I have followed the programs for years for periods, but they aren't sufficient to be called "cardio" (cardiac output or aerobic training). You can't build a high level aerobic base by swinging a kettlebell for reps each minute or even snatching one.

They could easily condense all of those books into an article length piece. They literally do it in the summary chapter of every book. I won't post the programs here out of respect, but the majority of the books are just random anecdotes.

Pavel has written the same style book for years, a minimalist program to achieve every goal, that could be summed up in a couple pages. They are ok to do for a general strength program, but the current iterations aren't "cardio " training as much as they want to sell it as that.

FFS it's obvious you haven't read his current books and are just repeating your criticisms from the dragondoor days. You have no idea what their programs, what their training, or what their books are like right now.

 

[maximus__]

FFS it's obvious you haven't read his current books and are just repeating your criticisms from the dragondoor days. You have no idea what their programs, what their training, or what their books are like right now.

TLDR: Strongifirst is Ok, but their training protocols aren't cardio training.

What have I gotten wrong? It's not cardio training at all. I already said I own the books except 1.

There are no studies to back what they say in terms of anti glycolitic training, they even acknowledge that they are still working on it. Not all training has to be hard, but it doesn't need to be as easy as they make out either.

I haven't said they aren't good training programs, just not what we are referring to as cardio. They even recommend LSS work in the last book to complement their own training protocol for aerobic capacity and endurance. Why wouldn't I just do LSS then in the context of that specific training capacity?

The volume of the programs released isn't enough to cause the body to adapt in the way they are claiming and we never reach and maintain the required heart rate to cause that to occur for the cardiac system. The total training volume is too low to be strength endurance and you won't magically build more power after the first month from the ballistic kettlebell exercises.

The only thing that can happen is you can do said movement for more rounds, that's why I made the comment of just getting better at kettlebell swings. You can say the same about any exercise in the example. If I go from doing 20 rounds to 30 rounds, I have gotten better at doing kettlebell swings for rounds. If I run for 30 mins at a heart rate of 145 bpm and travel 5km one session and then run 6km at 145bpm 20 sessions later, I have gotten better at running AND improved my cardiac output in a measurable way. It's an actual measurable way to progress.

 

[don't ask]

TLDR: Strongifirst is Ok, but their training protocols aren't cardio training.

What have I gotten wrong? It's not cardio training at all. I already said I own the books except 1.

There are no studies to back what they say in terms of anti glycolitic training, they even acknowledge that they are still working on it. Not all training has to be hard, but it doesn't need to be as easy as they make out either.

I haven't said they aren't good training programs, just not what we are referring to as cardio. They even recommend LSS work in the last book to complement their own training protocol for aerobic capacity and endurance. Why wouldn't I just do LSS then in the context of that specific training capacity?

The volume of the programs released isn't enough to cause the body to adapt in the way they are claiming and we never reach and maintain the required heart rate to cause that to occur for the cardiac system. The total training volume is too low to be strength endurance and you won't magically build more power after the first month from the ballistic kettlebell exercises.

The only thing that can happen is you can do said movement for more rounds, that's why I made the comment of just getting better at kettlebell swings. You can say the same about any exercise in the example. If I go from doing 20 rounds to 30 rounds, I have gotten better at doing kettlebell swings for rounds. If I run for 30 mins at a heart rate of 145 bpm and travel 5km one session and then run 6km at 145bpm 20 sessions later, I have gotten better at running AND improved my cardiac output in a measurable way. It's an actual measurable way to progress.

Let's get this out of the way first: which Strongfirst books/programs are you specifically talking about when you make these criticisms? Because there are only a few of their products you could (very badly) be describing.

 

[maximus__]

Let's get this out of the way first: which Strongfirst books/programs are you specifically talking about when you make these criticisms? Because there are only a few of their products you could (very badly) be describing.

I was specifically referring to Kettlebell Axe in my initial statement.

I am purposefully only referring to the books in general terms to avoid posting the program out of respect for the authors intellectual property. The book is only $10 and I believe that's a fair price, but the criticism of the book effectively being an article is still valid.

I know it's not just swings, but you can insert any of the other recommended exercises and the criticism still stands. It will not achieve the aim of what we generally refer to when we talk about cardio training. Cardio training is building the aerobic system and has specific adaptions we are targetting that these programs don't achieve. If we were talking about Strength endurance it's more valid, but still lacks volume to fully develop that capacity after the initial 6-8 weeks. After that you just get better at the specific protocol you are choosing to do.

 

[don't ask]

I was specifically referring to Kettlebell Axe in my initial statement.

I am purposefully only referring to the books in general terms to avoid posting the program out of respect for the authors intellectual property. The book is only $10 and I believe that's a fair price, but the criticism of the book effectively being an article is still valid.

I know it's not just swings, but you can insert any of the other recommended exercises and the criticism still stands. It will not achieve the aim of what we generally refer to when we talk about cardio training. Cardio training is building the aerobic system and has specific adaptions we are targetting that these programs don't achieve. If we were talking about Strength endurance it's more valid, but still lacks volume to fully develop that capacity after the initial 6-8 weeks. After that you just get better at the specific protocol you are choosing to do.

You don't at all need to give the program away to answer my questions. Okay, so to be clear: you are basing your entire criticism of Strongfirst off of one book?

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Biggest killer is Heart related issues in the world.

3x30-60m easy cardio sessions a week will do more for you than strength and muscle mass long term sadly.

I would rather strength training, but the ability to run/swim/walk/ride 3x a week for 30+ mins will provide sufficient strength to offset aging, provided you don't go to far and start running ultras with no strength work.

It's sadly all you really need, but screw TS, people should do both for long term health.

I can assure after 40 years of life we are all going to likely die of heart disease. Strength will serve you much better in day to day life. Im not talking about powerlifter strength I am talking about general strength is the most important attribute to get through rough days until you succumb to heart disease. It Is not rocket science to train appropriately everybody knows that you need to do strength training and some cardio.

 

[maximus__]

I can assure after 40 years of life we are all going to likely die of heart disease. Strength will serve you much better in day to day life. Im not talking about powerlifter strength I am talking about general strength is the most important attribute to get through rough days until you succumb to heart disease. It Is not rocket science to train appropriately everybody knows that you need to do strength training and some cardio.

That’s not the topic of the thread though. Of course strength and conditioning together is best.

My god I hope I last more than 40 years cause I am running out of time.

The truth of the matter is somebody who can go out for a 30min easy run/swim or ride 3x a week and maintain a healthy heart is strong enough in most cases for day to day life.

Definitely need to do both though.

 

[maximus__]

You don't at all need to give the program away to answer my questions. Okay, so to be clear: you are basing your entire criticism of Strongfirst off of one book?

No. But I am making it simple enough to address based on the topic of this thread.

Tell me which book or training protocol from Strongfirst is cardio in your opinion? Can it stand alone without adding Long steady state work?

 

[don't ask]

No. But I am making it simple enough to address based on the topic of this thread.

You're talking ignorant shit, is what you're doing.

Tell me which book or training protocol from Strongfirst is cardio in your opinion? Can it stand alone without adding Long steady state work?

Kettlebell AXE will improve your cardio. They're suggesting Maffetone work because it's an optional component of the program. The book clearly tells you that the science you're criticizing them for not having is in Simple And Sinister and The Quick And The Dead. And, yes, those books are packed with the science. But you would know that if you did, indeed, have all their products instead of lying out your ass.

I said their programs would improve strength, strength endurance, cardio and make you explosive, but you disagreed, saying they would make you better at kettlebell swings. They have only three products with kettlebell swings in them. You are completely ignorant of Plan Strong, Built Strong, Iron Cardio, Kettlebells Strongfirst on BJJFanatics, and Iron Heart, which will let you build the various adaptations I mentioned and almost all of them can be done with any implement you like. And that's not to mention the plethora of programs and articles on their website, which will do the same.

You literally have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. We get it. You don't like them. Stop being an idiot.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I picked "I don't know" so the survey results now look like a sideways dick and balls.

But this is semantics because all forms of "cardio" and "weights" include aspects of the other. It's impossible to train with weights and not elevate your HR and impart some cardio benefit. Likewise any cardio training is also "weight training" insofar as you're working to move your own bodyweight. Even classic cardio like distance running works your muscles and builds size and strength in your legs and throughout the rest of your body.

But in the spirit of the OP, if I could only do one form of exercise, it would be gymnastics. Those guys are jacked AF. Running, jumping, rings, knocking fools out with thomas flares from a pommel horse. Not sure if that counts as cardio or weights so I guess my answer is "dick and balls."

 

[maximus__]

You're talking ignorant shit, is what you're doing.

Kettlebell AXE will improve your cardio. They're suggesting Maffetone work because it's an optional component of the program. The book clearly tells you that the science you're criticizing them for not having is in Simple And Sinister and The Quick And The Dead. And, yes, those books are packed with the science. But you would know that if you did, indeed, have all their products instead of lying out your ass.

I said their programs would improve strength, strength endurance, cardio and make you explosive, but you disagreed, saying they would make you better at kettlebell swings. They have only three products with kettlebell swings in them. You are completely ignorant of Plan Strong, Built Strong, Iron Cardio, Kettlebells Strongfirst on BJJFanatics, and Iron Heart, which will let you build the various adaptations I mentioned and almost all of them can be done with any implement you like. And that's not to mention the plethora of programs and articles on their website, which will do the same.

You literally have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. We get it. You don't like them. Stop being an idiot.

None of those programs will provide you with specific adaptions of heart rate based steady state training. They will all fall short. Re read the supposed science in those books. That’s why they always refer to the WTH effect.

I could do benchpress for 4-6 reps on the minute and end up with my heart rate elevated. It doesn’t make it a cardio workout. It's strength endurance training with a bias towards improving my Benchpress endurance. It will make me better at doing more benchpress after the first couple sessions.

It's not possible to maintain a heart rate in the correct zone for the correct length of time to create those adaptations. Yes you will improve your conditioning in some way if you are detrained, but if I want to build my cardiac output, I need to spend 30+ mins maintaining my heart rate in the correct zone. None of the programs released do that and I can't do that without doing long steady state work.

I never said you won't get stronger, more conditioned or more explosive at any point. I said it will taper off quickly, if I snatch a 32kg kettlebell for 5 reps and then do it for 8 reps, I haven't become more explosive, I have built my capacity with the kettlebell snatch.

If you take a high level endurance athlete, get them to do Kettlebell Axe for example, they aren't going to build their aerobic system. They will receive strength and strength endurance adaptations. If you take a strength athlete and they do the same thing, they will receive conditioning adaptations. If these same athletes do a heart rate based steady state running program, regardless of their level of aerobic conditioning, they build their aerobic system.

I still really enjoy the Strongfirst programs when I just want something simple to follow during periods of my life, but I am not going to pretend that I can do a strength movement to build aerobic conditioning. You can be critical of a system and use their training programs. I just accept I have to supplement their programs with some aerobic work on the side.

 

[don't ask]

None of those programs will provide you with specific adaptions of heart rate based steady state training. They will all fall short. Re read the supposed science in those books. That’s why they always refer to the WTH effect.

I could do benchpress for 4-6 reps on the minute and end up with my heart rate elevated. It doesn’t make it a cardio workout. It's strength endurance training with a bias towards improving my Benchpress endurance. It will make me better at doing more benchpress after the first couple sessions.

It's not possible to maintain a heart rate in the correct zone for the correct length of time to create those adaptations. Yes you will improve your conditioning in some way if you are detrained, but if I want to build my cardiac output, I need to spend 30+ mins maintaining my heart rate in the correct zone. None of the programs released do that and I can't do that without doing long steady state work.

I never said you won't get stronger, more conditioned or more explosive at any point. I said it will taper off quickly, if I snatch a 32kg kettlebell for 5 reps and then do it for 8 reps, I haven't become more explosive, I have built my capacity with the kettlebell snatch.

If you take a high level endurance athlete, get them to do Kettlebell Axe for example, they aren't going to build their aerobic system. They will receive strength and strength endurance adaptations. If you take a strength athlete and they do the same thing, they will receive conditioning adaptations. If these same athletes do a heart rate based steady state running program, regardless of their level of aerobic conditioning, they build their aerobic system.

I still really enjoy the Strongfirst programs when I just want something simple to follow during periods of my life, but I am not going to pretend that I can do a strength movement to build aerobic conditioning. You can be critical of a system and use their training programs. I just accept I have to supplement their programs with some aerobic work on the side.

I said:

Strongfirst is doing some really cool stuff with strength endurance and work capacity, which gives you all the benefits listed under both modalities. Simple & Sinister, Iron Cardio, their BJJ Fanatics program, and several other programs will get you strong as hell and let you be explosive for hours.

And you said:

No they won't. They will get you good at swinging a kettlebell.

You don't know shit about Strongfirst's programs, something made pretty clear by your kettlebell swing comment. They will more than deliver all the points in the OP's chart and the adaptations I discussed. And you know how stupid you sound because now you're babbling about what elite athletes need and trying to change this to a discussion about steady state cardio.

What the hell is wrong with you?