Dern, Ortega..and all BJJ players in general.

As someone who started as a BJJ guy who took up striking and wrestling after the age of 25, I can only say that it was much easier to develop a competitive level of striking than taking someone down. Perhaps that's just me, but the "slow-twitch muscle fiber" hypothesis that was brought up here a few times, really seems to apply. Another thing is that it becomes increasingly difficult to apply an offensive grappling gameplan in this day and age of MMA, because it's so much easier to avoid grappling exchanges than it is to force them onto someone (also considering the rule set and the fact that both people hardly wear any clothes and are sweaty).
Moreover, enforcing grappling exchanges usually takes more energy, explosiveness and conditioning, and a lot of BJJ guys aren't the natural athletes that their opponents are, so you run into the danger of gassing out, which usually equals death on that level. Of course there are takedowns which can be done with less energy, but mastering those to a degree that makes them work against that level of competition is immensely difficult. If you look at the successful grapplers of recent years, you'll see a number of attributes that need to come together: Top of the food chain level conditioning / either top level explosiveness or strength / usually more than ten years of wrestling experience.
 
Ya I don’t mind if some fighters aren’t great at everything but you still gotta be great at getting the fight where you want it or youre not gonna stand much of a chance.
 
StonedLemur said:
At this point why aren't these people drilling takedowns nonstop?

If an idiot like Josh Koscheck (a born wrestler) can improve on striking, then why wouldn't these BJJ cats want the most effective way to take someone into their world?

Even after working with Cejudo, Derns takedowns look like trash.
Ortega too for that matter...am I missing something here?

View attachment 1031135
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Mma has evolved.

Takedowns are hard to do

And easier to learn how to defend.
 
Gnosisrausch said:
As someone who started as a BJJ guy who took up striking and wrestling after the age of 25, I can only say that it was much easier to develop a competitive level of striking than taking someone down. Perhaps that's just me, but the "slow-twitch muscle fiber" hypothesis that was brought up here a few times, really seems to apply. Another thing is that it becomes increasingly difficult to apply an offensive grappling gameplan in this day and age of MMA, because it's so much easier to avoid grappling exchanges than it is to force them onto someone (also considering the rule set and the fact that both people hardly wear any clothes and are sweaty).
Moreover, enforcing grappling exchanges usually takes more energy, explosiveness and conditioning, and a lot of BJJ guys aren't the natural athletes that their opponents are, so you run into the danger of gassing out, which usually equals death on that level. Of course there are takedowns which can be done with less energy, but mastering those to a degree that makes them work against that level of competition is immensely difficult. If you look at the successful grapplers of recent years, you'll see a number of attributes that need to come together: Top of the food chain level conditioning / either top level explosiveness or strength / usually more than ten years of wrestling experience.
Click to expand...

I guess they shouldn't even try then sir.
And they don't need to master wrestling.
 
Kono dio da! said:
I hate fighters who refuse to take the path of least resistance. I hate wrestlers who refuse to wrestle. I hate BJJ players in general, unless we're talking about RDA, jailton, Ilia and Maia. The rest can go fuck themselves.
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Especially Kron Gracie. Even the Diaz brothers. Imagine how lethal those guys would've been if they had good leg takedowns.
 
Kono dio da! said:
I hate fighters who refuse to take the path of least resistance. I hate wrestlers who refuse to wrestle. I hate BJJ players in general, unless we're talking about RDA, jailton, Ilia and Maia. The rest can go fuck themselves.
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Hate is a strong word, but you're obviously allowed to feel that way sir.
 
If you’re not a natural, or physical specimen, wrestling (offence) is very difficult and labour intensive to learn as an adult.

That said, I’d assume modern BJJ incorporates takedowns into training.
 
Reptile_Bong_Hit said:
If you’re not a natural, or physical specimen, wrestling (offence) is very difficult and labour intensive to learn as an adult.

That said, I’d assume modern BJJ incorporates takedowns into training.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should read the thread sir.
 
StonedLemur said:
Maybe you should read the thread sir.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what you’re referencing but the thread is good.

I just feel like it’d be easier to develop rudimentary striking and land a “lucky punch” in an MMA fight than a “lucky takedown”, in general.
 
Reptile_Bong_Hit said:
I’m not sure what you’re referencing but the thread is good.

I just feel like it’d be easier to develop rudimentary striking and land a “lucky punch” in an MMA fight than a “lucky takedown”, in general.
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That very well may be true, but a competent wrestling game will get you further than a lucky punch...do you not agree?
 
StonedLemur said:
That very well may be true, but a competent wrestling game will get you further than a lucky punch...do you not agree?
Click to expand...

Oh for sure. Just harder to learn. GSP is both a natural and a freak; Maia’s a savant; Weili is also athletic for the division.

I can’t think of too many non-wrestlers who became competant MMA wrestlers (offensively). Sandhagen I suppose, but Chito and Font aren’t exactly known for td defence.
 
Reptile_Bong_Hit said:
Oh for sure. Just harder to learn. GSP is both a natural and a freak; Maia’s a savant; Weili is also athletic for the division.

I can’t think of too many non-wrestlers who became competant MMA wrestlers (offensively). Sandhagen I suppose, but Chito and Font aren’t exactly known for td defence.
Click to expand...

No but Sandhagen is a good example.

You don't have to be a athletic wonderkid to pick up wrestling.
 
@StonedLemur: Have you ever actually been in the position of trying to learn offensive Wrestling as an adult against elite competitors that try not to get taken down under any circumstances? That stuff is HARD. In my former post, I didn't say that you need to become a master wrestler, but you need to really master those takedowns and/or be naturally athletic. For most people it's easier to become somewhat proficient at striking than at getting an opponent to the ground who tries everything to stop the takedown. That's it.
 
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