Social Evangelicals: "Jesus was a Libtard!"

[terrapin]

Well I can tell you it wasn't any one thing. The people who know me personally think it was because my wife and I got divorced, but the truth is there were tons of issues we faced in the church way before the marriage was dismantled. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if I had not been a pastor, she and I would still be married to this day.

When I worked with kids, that's when I was the happiest. I did summer camps and that was the most blissful stuff I ever experienced in my life. I also served as a prison chaplain and that brought some of the most touching moments in my life.

The issues usually came from dealing with other adult Christians. Just one example: one time, after services, one of the ladies came up to me and asked if I would do a series of sermons on the dangers of pornography. This was 2007 and so internet porn was really on the rise. I agreed that it was an important topic and a couple weeks later gave my first lecture on it. After THAT, another lady started screaming at me. She called me a liar, and a legalistic scribe. I sincerely, truly had no idea what the hell was going on. Later the men of the church had a meeting with me (we had no elders, that was a huge problem) and I still was not clear on what the issue was, and nobody would tell me, even though it was clear that I did not have all the pieces.

I eventually found out that the kid of the one woman and the kid of the other had been on someone's computer, and that adult content was later found by the parents. Both kids pointed the finger at each other and because the porn was found at a particular house, it was believed that the kid who lived there had dug it up.

And in an attempt to weaponize her pastor, the mother had asked me to start a series on the subject as a means of attacking her. She had left this part out in her discussion with me.

I really got to see the worst sides of people. After my divorce I stuck around for another year but just decided that I'd rather be homeless than do that anymore. So I retired. And when I left I had no plan. It was better in my view to drive south to Florida with no plan whatsoever than it was to stay up there.

im not surprised you experienced that kind of ridiculousness honestly. ive experienced my fair share of mutiny and hidden motives too. if you are happier doing what you are doing im glad you chose to get out of it man. can i ask (with no intention at all of trying to change your mind) how that effected your Christianity causing you to leave it?

 

[IamStryker]

Whatever makes you stay in everything is "woke" trap. People on both sides love to stay in their echo chamber of realities. It's very odd but I assume that both sides want to live in those bubbles .

Your idea that the right thinks everything is woke is pretty silly. Here's an example. If you tell me the police need to be defunded because we don't need them I will reply that is woke nonsense. If you tell me the police need better training and more accountability I will reply that's a fair point of view. So I don't know what you mean when you say we think everything is woke.

 

[spamking]

Well I can tell you it wasn't any one thing. The people who know me personally think it was because my wife and I got divorced, but the truth is there were tons of issues we faced in the church way before the marriage was dismantled. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if I had not been a pastor, she and I would still be married to this day.

When I worked with kids, that's when I was the happiest. I did summer camps and that was the most blissful stuff I ever experienced in my life. I also served as a prison chaplain and that brought some of the most touching moments in my life.

The issues usually came from dealing with other adult Christians. Just one example: one time, after services, one of the ladies came up to me and asked if I would do a series of sermons on the dangers of pornography. This was 2007 and so internet porn was really on the rise. I agreed that it was an important topic and a couple weeks later gave my first lecture on it. After THAT, another lady started screaming at me. She called me a liar, and a legalistic scribe. I sincerely, truly had no idea what the hell was going on. Later the men of the church had a meeting with me (we had no elders, that was a huge problem) and I still was not clear on what the issue was, and nobody would tell me, even though it was clear that I did not have all the pieces.

I eventually found out that the kid of the one woman and the kid of the other had been on someone's computer, and that adult content was later found by the parents. Both kids pointed the finger at each other and because the porn was found at a particular house, it was believed that the kid who lived there had dug it up.

And in an attempt to weaponize her pastor, the mother had asked me to start a series on the subject as a means of attacking her. She had left this part out in her discussion with me.

I really got to see the worst sides of people. After my divorce I stuck around for another year but just decided that I'd rather be homeless than do that anymore. So I retired. And when I left I had no plan. It was better in my view to drive south to Florida with no plan whatsoever than it was to stay up there.

Dang. Preachers should only need to worry about preaching the truth and not how they're possibly being used against various members of the congregation. Heck, members shouldn't really have any input in what your messages will be in my opinion.

 

[Sinister]

im definitely worried about religious extremism but honestly im worried about extremism in general from all quarters. people have lost their minds it seems.

chris hedges (not trying to bring politics into at and i dont know yours) has written some books on the topic and ive read them but i dont see what i could do about it. the socio/political forces that are driving religious extremism transcend religion itself to a large degree i think.

You can do whatever you can. Even if its local coalition-building or something small like that.

Heck, members shouldn't really have any input in what your messages will be in my opinion.

Tell that to the people screaming at teachers...

 

[WhiteMousse]

im not surprised you experienced that kind of ridiculousness honestly. ive experienced my fair share of mutiny and hidden motives too. if you are happier doing what you are doing im glad you chose to get out of it man. can i ask (with no intention at all of trying to change your mind) how that effected your Christianity causing you to leave it?

Third beer I'd probably say I believe in Jesus, at least I believe in what he stood for. I get hung up on a couple things.

Thing #1- it's clear that the Apostles expected Him to come back very, very soon. Like in their lifetime. We know from scripture that the Apostles were not always correct in the things that they anticipated, but they claimed to have the benefits of the Holy Ghost helping their perception.

Thing #1.5- the idea of inspiration as a whole. I majored in New Testament textual criticism and over time I could no longer say that I believed that the Bible was all, only the word of God. Paul mentions a letter that we don't have in I Corinthians, and he seems to think that it's really important. Acts quotes a saying of Jesus that is not found in the Gospels. I don't take these things to mean that we can't use the Bible as a reliable document, only that there are limits to which it can be used. The Bible itself acknowledges this

Thing #2- no matter how we slice it, God as he is depicted in the Bible is accountable for all things, good or bad. "But we all sinned against God, we were banished from Eden." No I didn't. Maybe you did. The thing is I am much more comfortable with the approach given in Job. God actually acknowledges that everything ultimately comes from him. His answer is essentially "And what are you going to do about it?" The answer is nothing. God doesn't need us to try and explain his actions for him, but that's what a lot of Christians try to do, and you can see some of that in a few of the Biblical writings, which is really contrived. You simply cannot justify God's behavior using our standards. By our standards He's a tyrant.

Thing #3- David was a piece of shit. So was Jacob. The text literally says that Jacob was lazy and that he preferred to dwell in tents, as opposed to his brother Esau, who worked hard, toiled endlessly for the approval of his parents and made himself and his clan into absolute warriors. Jacob was a lech who tricked his dad, stole from his brother and then hid like a coward when he found out that his favorite son had (supposedly) been killed. Also he had a favorite son.

David is called by the text to be a Man After God's Own Heart. Yet he led a rebellion, slept with some guy's wife, had the guy sent home from the military in an effort to conceal the fact that he himself had gotten the girl pregnant, and then finally murdered the guy when he was too valiant to go home while Israel was at war with the Philistines. It makes no sense whatsoever. Saul was in terms of morality, the greatest king Israel ever had. He had no harem. He committed no treason. He started no rebellion, stole no women and killed no husbands. He didn't even want to be king, and hid from the coronation because he was too modest. In light of stuff like this, the aims of the Aaronic priests (the authors of the books Samuel, Kings and Chronicles) are really clear: David was a man after God's own heart because he was the king during the golden era of Israel. Saul was a blasphemer and disobedient because he wasn't David.

Just a couple reasons. I'm happy to go on if you guys want

 

[kenetics]

Your idea that the right thinks everything is woke is pretty silly. Here's an example. If you tell me the police need to be defunded because we don't need them I will reply that is woke nonsense. If you tell me the police need better training and more accountability I will reply that's a fair point of view. So I don't know what you mean when you say we think everything is woke.

I would say that anyone who says or believe to "defund police" deserves no response to something that dumb. So I would use the word DUMB not WOKE.

 

[Sinister]

Third beer I'd probably say I believe in Jesus, at least I believe in what he stood for. I get hung up on a couple things.

Thing #1- it's clear that the Apostles expected Him to come back very, very soon. Like in their lifetime. We know from scripture that the Apostles were not always correct in the things that they anticipated, but they claimed to have the benefits of the Holy Ghost helping their perception.

Thing #1.5- the idea of inspiration as a whole. I majored in New Testament textual criticism and over time I could no longer say that I believed that the Bible was all, only the word of God. Paul mentions a letter that we don't have in I Corinthians, and he seems to think that it's really important. Acts quotes a saying of Jesus that is not found in the Gospels. I don't take these things to mean that we can't use the Bible as a reliable document, only that there are limits to which it can be used. The Bible itself acknowledges this

Thing #2- no matter how we slice it, God as he is depicted in the Bible is accountable for all things, good or bad. "But we all sinned against God, we were banished from Eden." No I didn't. Maybe you did. The thing is I am much more comfortable with the approach given in Job. God actually acknowledges that everything ultimately comes from him. His answer is essentially "And what are you going to do about it?" The answer is nothing. God doesn't need us to try and explain his actions for him, but that's what a lot of Christians try to do, and you can see some of that in a few of the Biblical writings, which is really contrived. You simply cannot justify God's behavior using our standards. By our standards He's a tyrant.

Thing #3- David was a piece of shit. So was Jacob. The text literally says that Jacob was lazy and that he preferred to dwell in tents, as opposed to his brother Esau, who worked hard, toiled endlessly for the approval of his parents and made himself and his clan into absolute warriors. Jacob was a lech who tricked his dad, stole from his brother and then hid like a coward when he found out that his favorite son had (supposedly) been killed. Also he had a favorite son.

David is called by the text to be a Man After God's Own Heart. Yet he led a rebellion, slept with some guy's wife, had the guy sent home from the military in an effort to conceal the fact that he himself had gotten the girl pregnant, and then finally murdered the guy when he was too valiant to go home while Israel was at war with the Philistines. It makes no sense whatsoever. Saul was in terms of morality, the greatest king Israel ever had. He had no harem. He committed no treason. He started no rebellion, stole no women and killed no husbands. He didn't even want to be king, and hid from the coronation because he was too modest. In light of stuff like this, the aims of the Aaronic priests (the authors of the books Samuel, Kings and Chronicles) are really clear: David was a man after God's own heart because he was the king during the golden era of Israel. Saul was a blasphemer and disobedient because he wasn't David.

Just a couple reasons. I'm happy to go on if you guys want

Your posts are both refreshing and informative. And I say that as a proud heretic

 

[WhiteMousse]

Your posts are both refreshing and informative. And I say that as a proud heretic

You should see some of the hate mail I got after word got out that I was no longer going to church

 

[spamking]

Tell that to the people screaming at teachers...

As the husband of a teacher . . . don't even get me started.

 

[IamStryker]

I would say that anyone who says or believe to "defund police" deserves no response to something that dumb. So I would use the word DUMB not WOKE.

But it is a far left idea which is why it's also woke. I appreciate if those on the left call it dumb though.

 

[WhiteMousse]

@Sinister for me the issue of Saul is really where everything started. Unless you have the author constantly telling you that he's bad, you are naturally inclined to side with the poor guy. Saul is charged by God and his prophet Samuel to fight the Philistines, but an offering must be made to God before the Israelites go into battle. And only Samuel can make that offering. Samuel told him he'd be there ON the seventh day, and seven days go by and Samuel doesn't show up. So he didn't do what he said he'd do. So now what does Saul do? Does he go into battle without the offering? That's a sin. Does he wait on Samuel? That's death. All the soldiers start leaving. So Saul makes the offering himself, they go into battle and they win.

Now here's the thing-- if it had been David, the Aaronic authors would have said that David had "bold faith" in the Lord, and that's why he did the thing that Samuel said not to do. We know this because that's what happens later in Kings with the Census. But with Saul, Samuel comes back and yells at him. Says that he's a sinner. Saul even says "You weren't here and I didn't want to dishonor the Lord." The response? "Your house will be taken from you."

Well thanks a lot, God. No wonder your parties suck

Saul basically does everything that a reasonable person would do to try and make someone happy. And every time God just says "No." He's acting like my stuck up girlfriend.

"Here you go, baby."
"No, that's not it."
"Babe, what do you need? Tell me, I'll do it for you."
"No, you should know"

So unless you really believe what these authors are saying in their commentary about this, you're left wondering what the crap is going on

 

[Sinister]

You should see some of the hate mail I got after word got out that I was no longer going to church

Not to go off on a tangent too much but I dont know if you're into the music of "A Perfect Circle." You might understand a lot of the lyrics written by Maynard James Keenan, as he has multiple songs surrounding the death of his Mother. She was ostracized by her Church and essentially blamed for her own suffering. That's what led him to write "Judith" (that was her name):





They essentially told her that her own sins brought about her condition and abandoned her. Your sentiments here remind me of that story. He became resentful and questioning of how she could still subscribe to an ideology that facilitated that behavior in people.

 

[Phisher]

I would say that anyone who says or believe to "defund police" deserves no response to something that dumb. So I would use the word DUMB not WOKE.

Are you confusing police funding cuts with police abolition?

Because there's absolutely nothing stupid about taking away all of the pointless tactical gear, APCs and tanks from some of these small departments.

Uvalde showed that they can have all the toys in the world, but they're still going to sit around waiting for a better trained agency to do the hard work when the shit hits the fan.

It's a gigantic waste of money that should be going to schools and social programs to prevent people from falling into crime.

Also, federal grants for arrests, rather than prosecutions, are counterproductive. The federal DUI program has just led to a bunch of "DUI specialists" who falsely arrest sober people on a regular basis to increase their pay.

 

[terrapin]

Third beer I'd probably say I believe in Jesus, at least I believe in what he stood for. I get hung up on a couple things.

Thing #1- it's clear that the Apostles expected Him to come back very, very soon. Like in their lifetime. We know from scripture that the Apostles were not always correct in the things that they anticipated, but they claimed to have the benefits of the Holy Ghost helping their perception.

Thing #1.5- the idea of inspiration as a whole. I majored in New Testament textual criticism and over time I could no longer say that I believed that the Bible was all, only the word of God. Paul mentions a letter that we don't have in I Corinthians, and he seems to think that it's really important. Acts quotes a saying of Jesus that is not found in the Gospels. I don't take these things to mean that we can't use the Bible as a reliable document, only that there are limits to which it can be used. The Bible itself acknowledges this

Thing #2- no matter how we slice it, God as he is depicted in the Bible is accountable for all things, good or bad. "But we all sinned against God, we were banished from Eden." No I didn't. Maybe you did. The thing is I am much more comfortable with the approach given in Job. God actually acknowledges that everything ultimately comes from him. His answer is essentially "And what are you going to do about it?" The answer is nothing. God doesn't need us to try and explain his actions for him, but that's what a lot of Christians try to do, and you can see some of that in a few of the Biblical writings, which is really contrived. You simply cannot justify God's behavior using our standards. By our standards He's a tyrant.

Thing #3- David was a piece of shit. So was Jacob. The text literally says that Jacob was lazy and that he preferred to dwell in tents, as opposed to his brother Esau, who worked hard, toiled endlessly for the approval of his parents and made himself and his clan into absolute warriors. Jacob was a lech who tricked his dad, stole from his brother and then hid like a coward when he found out that his favorite son had (supposedly) been killed. Also he had a favorite son.

David is called by the text to be a Man After God's Own Heart. Yet he led a rebellion, slept with some guy's wife, had the guy sent home from the military in an effort to conceal the fact that he himself had gotten the girl pregnant, and then finally murdered the guy when he was too valiant to go home while Israel was at war with the Philistines. It makes no sense whatsoever. Saul was in terms of morality, the greatest king Israel ever had. He had no harem. He committed no treason. He started no rebellion, stole no women and killed no husbands. He didn't even want to be king, and hid from the coronation because he was too modest. In light of stuff like this, the aims of the Aaronic priests (the authors of the books Samuel, Kings and Chronicles) are really clear: David was a man after God's own heart because he was the king during the golden era of Israel. Saul was a blasphemer and disobedient because he wasn't David.

Just a couple reasons. I'm happy to go on if you guys want

that all makes sense to me. i am totally aware of all of that too but it just doesn't bother me at all. im lucky in that from my first introduction to Christianity i was taught all of this kind of thing by a priest with multiple masters degrees and who was an exceptional theologian.

its weird how just the order things are taught in can change things so much for a person. "the word of god" does not mean anything like perfect, error-less, or not messy to me and since it came to me that way from day 1 none of these issues is an issue for me. i was filled with the holy spirit and knew christ while being taught all of this.

the old testament is just a people, definitely under the influence of God, but broken and filled with errors in their thinking that are CENTURIES away from being addressed. a man after god's heart ONLY means that that person can kick the ball forward in the way God wants at that point in history. the old testament is filled with imperfect wisdom.

the contemplative path makes all of this easy to understand in my experience. there are reliable and repeatable STAGES of growth summarized in the beatitudes for the contemplative path and each stage takes a number of years to grow into. you simply CANNOT tell a person what its like to be in stage 5 and expect them to pull it off and in fact if you do you mess them up badly. if they try to be like stage 5 they fail utterly and cannot even be at the stage they are at well. they simply have to go through the preliminary stages and get those qualities in them. the qualities build upon themselves and all are needed.

as far as the disciples thinking jesus was coming right back that is a helpful fiction. it caused them to have a zeal and an intensity that is impossible to have in other times and circumstances. jesus allowed them this fiction for Christianity benefit.

the old testament is a lot like that. god was building certain things over time in them and there was NO WAY to say it to them... they had to be brought there slowly and TONS of errors and sins were just left alone along the way to be addressed later.

 

[WhiteMousse]

Not to go off on a tangent too much but I dont know if you're into the music of "A Perfect Circle." You might understand a lot of the lyrics written by Maynard James Keenan, as he has multiple songs surrounding the death of his Mother. She was ostracized by her Church and essentially blamed for her own suffering. That's what led him to write "Judith" (that was her name):





They essentially told her that her own sins brought about her condition and abandoned her. Your sentiments here remind me of that story. He became resentful and questioning of how she could still subscribe to an ideology that facilitated that behavior in people.

I'm not exaggerating one bit, they're my favorite band of all time.

The Doomed is another good one.

By and Down the River might be my favorite song of all time

 

[Sinister]

I'm not exaggerating one bit, they're my favorite band of all time.

The Doomed is another good one.

By and Down the River might be my favorite song of all time

I'm a huge fan of TOOL, so naturally I like APC, who Maynard referred to as the feminine side of the coin of what TOOL is. Trans TOOL lol

But I didn't know the details behind this song when it first came out. It's obvious it still effects him to this day. There's some interesting videos on YT of Christians trying to make heads or tails of those lyrics. Like anger at God or those who represent their view of God's will is just incomprehensible.

 

[WhiteMousse]

that all makes sense to me. i am totally aware of all of that too but it just doesn't bother me at all. im lucky in that from my first introduction to Christianity i was taught all of this kind of thing by a priest with multiple masters degrees and who was an exceptional theologian.

its weird how just the order things are taught in can change things so much for a person. "the word of god" does not mean anything like perfect, error-less, or not messy to me and since it came to me that way from day 1 none of these issues is an issue for me. i was filled with the holy spirit and knew christ while being taught all of this.

the old testament is just a people, definitely under the influence of God, but broken and filled with errors in their thinking that are CENTURIES away from being addressed. a man after god's heart ONLY means that that person can kick the ball forward in the way God wants at that point in history. the old testament is filled with imperfect wisdom.

the contemplative path makes all of this easy to understand in my experience. there are reliable and repeatable STAGES of growth summarized in the beatitudes for the contemplative path and each stage takes a number of years to grow into. you simply CANNOT tell a person what its like to be in stage 5 and expect them to pull it off and in fact if you do you mess them up badly. if they try to be like stage 5 they fail utterly and cannot even be at the stage they are at well. they simply have to go through the preliminary stages and get those qualities in them. the qualities build upon themselves and all are needed.

as far as the disciples thinking jesus was coming right back that is a helpful fiction. it caused them to have a zeal and an intensity that is impossible to have in other times and circumstances. jesus allowed them this fiction for Christianity benefit.

the old testament is a lot like that. god was building certain things over time in them and there was NO WAY to say it to them... they had to be brought there slowly and TONS of errors and sins were just left alone along the way to be addressed later.

I think this is one of the greater sum elements, with which I am in agreement. Pointing people in the right direction using the symbols they understand.

And I should clarify that none of my issues with Biblical interpretation have caused me to disbelieve in Jesus. At least not necessarily. These days I'm not exactly sure what I believe, but I don't think it would be wise to dismiss or affirm anything based solely on my own life experience. Someone once told me that if the original creation story had been told exactly the way it really happened, the people during the ANE wouldn't have been able to understand it. He then went on to say that we probably wouldn't understand it either.

Jesus himself used parables, so the "truthful fiction" or "helpful fiction" idea holds up.

 

[WhiteMousse]

I'm a huge fan of TOOL, so naturally I like APC, who Maynard referred to as the feminine side of the coin of what TOOL is. Trans TOOL lol

But I didn't know the details behind this song when it first came out. It's obvious it still effects him to this day. There's some interesting videos on YT of Christians trying to make heads or tails of those lyrics. Like anger at God or those who represent their view of God's will is just incomprehensible.

TOOL is amazing. Maynard's voice is angelic. Have you heard anything from Puscifer? So happy someone else knows this amazing music

 

[Sinister]

TOOL is amazing. Maynard's voice is angelic. Have you heard anything from Puscifer? So happy someone else knows this amazing music

Yes indeed. I've never seen Puscifer live, but I have TOOL and APC. I'm not even a huge concern guy but my wife got APC tickets before concert tickets went insane. Their energy was so powerful she cried. It may also have been the contact high from the copious amount of weed in the air. Lol

I saw TOOL in the 90's before they got super big. They're actually better live with some songs than the album versions. They are, IMO, the greatest rock quartet to play together musically. A lead guitarist who can play beneath the bassist and resist soloing his balls off. A bassist who can carry a lead riff and transition back to underneath (Les Claypool from Primus sometimes has trouble with that). And do I need to say anything about Danny Carey? Then there's Maynard's writing, it's almost spiritual and yet is highly critical of social behavior, but relatable. Good stuff all around.

 

[WhiteMousse]

Yes indeed. I've never seen Puscifer live, but I have TOOL and APC. I'm not even a huge concern guy but my wife got APC tickets before concert tickets went insane. Their energy was so powerful she cried. It may also have been the contact high from the copious amount of weed in the air. Lol

I saw TOOL in the 90's before they got super big. They're actually better live with some songs than the album versions. They are, IMO, the greatest rock quartet to play together musically. A lead guitarist who can play beneath the bassist and resist soloing his balls off. A bassist who can carry a lead riff and transition back to underneath (Les Claypool from Primus sometimes has trouble with that). And do I need to say anything about Danny Carey? Then there's Maynard's writing, it's almost spiritual and yet is highly critical of social behavior, but relatable. Good stuff all around.

Oh my god man that is awesome. I'm envious. I agree--- the nigh spiritual energy must have been moving, truly. Growing up I was about music, and I had trouble understanding lyrics in songs. My best friend is the opposite-- he's not really musically inclined but in terms of prose and writing he's unmatched. TOOL is where those two things intersect- perfect lyrics and perfect music.

When I'm doing cardio I put on Hollow and I feel like I can run forever. There is something about it that fuels you to be better than what you are. It's like it's your very best conceivable self speaking to you and telling you to do what you have to do

So happy you got to experience that, man. Outstanding. Outstanding!!!