Float like a butterfly OR hit like a truck...a better way to throw hands!!

[-guerilla-]

Even better would be to never lift your feet off the ground at all.
Why walk normally and risk getting taken down when you can just drag your feet?

The next step in your logic line

 

[Sano]

It depends on the type of punch being thrown, what the fighter is setting up and what their style is. Some of the hardest punches ever thrown were with the foot turned over and heel off the ground, especially on the cross. You can't really pigeonhole it as you're doing.

PS: Your OP hardly qualifies as science.

 

[-guerilla-]

It depends on the type of punch being thrown, what the fighter is setting up and what their style is. Some of the hardest punches ever thrown were with the foot turned over and heel off the ground, especially on the cross. You can't really pigeonhole it as you're doing.

PS: Your OP hardly qualifies as science.

Actually its very, very simple science

The type of science is called physics

Just because people have been sucessful at koing an opponant with tipping strikes does NOT MEAN thats the best way to punch

Lots of sucessful techniques are inferior in fact yet work under special circumstances

Many of the best fighters in the world can commonly be seen reaching out with their cross landing a devastating punch while tipping foward with all their weight on the lead foot and their rear foot completely off the ground...the "superman" punch has NO ground contact yet CAN end a fight

Yet

They would have a harder punch if their back foot was FLAT on the ground

try this very simple experiment in physics to understand the Dynamics involved

walk over to a wall and put your cross fist on it in a proper boxing stance lean into the wall as heavy as you can as if to PUSH with your fist

you will notice you can put the most pressure and weight against the wall when your rear foot is flat against the ground not on your toes!

you will transfer VERY LITTLE force against the wall if your rear foot is entirely lifted

Some force/weight will transfer when you are on the ball of your rear foot

By far the most force/weight will be generated when your rear foot is FLAT against the floor and your leg is slightly bent

# Simple science

 

[Sano]

Actually its very, very simple science

The type of science is called physics

Just because people have been sucessful at koing an opponant with tipping strikes does NOT MEAN thats the best way to punch

Lots of sucessful techniques are inferior in fact yet work under special circumstances

Many of the best fighters in the world can commonly be seen reaching out with their cross landing a devastating punch while tipping foward with all their weight on the lead foot and their rear foot completely off the ground...the "superman" punch has NO ground contact yet CAN end a fight

Yet

They would have a harder punch if their back foot was FLAT on the ground

try this very simple experiment in physics to understand the Dynamics involved

walk over to a wall and put your cross fist on it in a proper boxing stance lean into the wall as heavy as you can as if to PUSH with your fist

you will notice you can put the most pressure and weight against the wall when your rear foot is flat against the ground not on your toes!

you will transfer VERY LITTLE force against the wall if your rear foot is entirely lifted

Some force/weight will transfer when you are on the ball of your rear foot

By far the most force/weight will be generated when your rear foot is FLAT against the floor and your leg is slightly bent

# Simple science

Sorry dude but you equating the biomechanics and physics of power punching with going over to the wall and pushing against it reveals that you don't know a lot about physics. Would you apply the same logic to shotputters and javelin throwers? Punching isn't pushing against an immovable object. You generate the power while the foot is flat and you have the most traction, but you transfer it when rotating. Depending on the anatomy of the individual, turning the foot over (while keeping the weight on the foot) helps increase rotational power and hip turn to a bigger degree than not rotating the foot, especially if there's a lot of toe-out in your stance. The reaction forces are multiplied by the rotation and at that point the power has already moved through the chain. I agree with you on stepping with the punches, it feels much more stable and you're in a better position, however the point is when it comes to power specifically there's more than one way to skin a cat. A lot of nuances.

The reason why I mentioned that some of the hardest boxers turned their rear foot over (regardless on their weight distribution) is because you attempted to use a still of Tyson doing the opposite as proof of your theory. Marciano, Joe Louis, Hearns, Shavers, Julian Jackson, Dempsey and more all turned their foot over on the majority of their rear straights and uppercuts especially (depending on the position and distance) and they were some of the most devastating power punchers ever. While this doesn't prove or disprove that one is better than the other, it does tell us that you can have the added positional benefit of turning the foot over and still be extremely powerful.

 

[SandisLL]

Dempsey for half uppercuts and uppercuts heavily used legs ….

Interesting is carefully to watch Fraizer's hooks too.

 

[eternaldarkness]

It depends on the type of punch being thrown, what the fighter is setting up and what their style is. Some of the hardest punches ever thrown were with the foot turned over and heel off the ground, especially on the cross. You can't really pigeonhole it as you're doing.

PS: Your OP hardly qualifies as science.

If the weight remains on the punching foot (right foot for right hand) physics dictates the you can't be generating maximum force. It is impossible to generate maximum force, when a good chunk of that weight remains on the ground.
Maximum force is achieved by starting with all your weight on the punching foot and transferring it all to the opposite side and "through" the target.

 

[Sano]

If the weight remains on the punching foot (right foot for right hand) physics dictates the you can't be generating maximum force. It is impossible to generate maximum force, when a good chunk of that weight remains on the ground.
Maximum force is achieved by starting with all your weight on the punching foot and transferring it all to the opposite side and "through" the target.

Not necessarily. It's a bit complicated, but in reality it depends. Throwing is a bit different than punching, or at least it can be. In throwing you're transferring all your weight through your body to an item, to propell that item forward. As soon as you let go (weight completely on your front foot backfoot of the ground) you're not in contact with it anymore. You've released it and the momentum travels with the item. When hitting something, most of the time, you want to be able to brace on impact because the second impulse, or stiffness, on impact helps deliver the power against the resistance. That's why sitting down, most of the time, helps you be more powerful because you're using the reactionary forces from the ground and you're braced.

HOWEVER, that's one way of punching. Notice that in some instances, like on some of Fraziers left hooks and Pattersons gazelle punch, it's more of a springed attack coming down and up. This is much more about momentum, loading, explosiveness and muscle reflexivity. More akin to jumping with a rotational elemental really and at times even both feet comes off the ground. There's different physics and mechanics at play. Then there's someone like Wilder, which is probably the most reminiscent of an actually throw (meaning his rear foot often times leaves the ground). He's generating a lot of power like the throwers with simular mechanics, yet while being in a bad position he's somehow able to use his forward momentum to his advantage and deliver the power without having to brace properly.

Someone like GGG and someone like Wilder have vastly different ways of transferring power. Being overly simplistic here, it seems that slower and more methodical fighters who hit hard tend to use the ground and sink more, while more agile and explosive fighters tend to use momentum and impulse more. In reality all punches are a mixture of both depending on the circumstances.

 

[SandisLL]

In reality all punches is a mixture of both depending on the circumstances.

U can taste what methods are more effective exactly for you.
Bag ( there are available even bags, that are fillable till 300 lbs and more ) and beat and see impact's effect.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

I wonder what the next episode of "a better way to *insert technique here*"...

Guerrilla, can you share how you brush your teeth and how you cook eggs? I bet you have a scientific method, better than the traditional ways to share with us.

 

[Sano]

U can taste what methods are more effective exactly for you.
Bag ( there are available even bags, that are fillable till 300 lbs and more ) and beat and see impact's effect.

Well yes, but sometimes you need to be taught something new or delevop certain physical attributes to really learn how to use your power. It's not always about punching the bag in a vacuum.

 

[SandisLL]

It's not always about punching the bag in a vacuum.

Of course I agree.
Because punch in combat arts is impact on moving 3D object.
Where all is important: all angles, Target place, collision vectors and speed etc etc.

However if guys conversate long, what punch is stronger, it is comfortable to ask them beat target ( bag ) and evalue effect ( bag's movement ).

 

[SandisLL]

Yes, I know that measurment tools exists and 3D modelling software too.
Including soft for car chrash modelling. Still companies are doing tests with real cars ( without ppl in of course ) too.
For simple gym, what tools you can use?

 

[Calmathetic9]

Never thought I would see David Moyes’ face in a boxing forum!!

 

[eternaldarkness]

Not necessarily. It's a bit complicated, but in reality it depends. Throwing is a bit different than punching, or at least it can be. In throwing you're transferring all your weight through your body to an item, to propell that item forward. As soon as you let go (weight completely on your front foot backfoot of the ground) you're not in contact with it anymore. You've released it and the momentum travels with the item. When hitting something, most of the time, you want to be able to brace on impact because the second impulse, or stiffness, on impact helps deliver the power against the resistance. That's why sitting down, most of the time, helps you be more powerful because you're using the reactionary forces from the ground and you're braced.

HOWEVER, that's one way of punching. Notice that in some instances, like on some of Fraziers left hooks and Pattersons gazelle punch, it's more of a springed attack coming down and up. This is much more about momentum, loading, explosiveness and muscle reflexivity. More akin to jumping with a rotational elemental really and at times even both feet comes off the ground. There's different physics and mechanics at play. Then there's someone like Wilder, which is probably the most reminiscent of an actually throw (meaning his rear foot often times leaves the ground). He's generating a lot of power like the throwers with simular mechanics, yet while being in a bad position he's somehow able to use his forward momentum to his advantage and deliver the power without having to brace properly.

Someone like GGG and someone like Wilder have vastly different ways of transferring power. Being overly simplistic here, it seems that slower and more methodical fighters who hit hard tend to use the ground and sink more, while more agile and explosive fighters tend to use momentum and impulse more. In reality all punches are a mixture of both depending on the circumstances.

I agree to an extent, but what reactionary forces come into play with an overhand? it applies for straight punches to some degree, but I'm not sure about hooks and overhands where you are relying heavily on circular momentum, to generate force.
The way I see it (and I have a very limited understanding of physics) is you are either throwing a rock at your opponent or a sponge. Bracing doesn't provide any more force it mearly creates a more solid weapon, therefore maximizing weight tranferal is still the primary generator of force.

 

[-guerilla-]

Weight transfer is what you should study in straight punch striking power

"Sitting down" on your punches largely means putting your full weight potential into your punches

The wall exercise is dead lock proof that a flat rear base foot gives the puncher the best weight transfer into the strike as the "push potential" is so much heavier opposed to ball of foot or tipping (entire rear foot floating)

Hooks and uppercut are largely momentum based power whereas the cross in particular can be more biomechanical

Mike tyson dug to the body with phenomenal punching power and used the flat base foot in doing so

Take a lesson from the hardest hitter in the world

Keep your rear foot FLAT to generate the most power just like iron mike especially when going to the body or with any straight punch

Keeping you rear foot flat also increases your balance potential as you cant "lean out" and "reach over" your hips as much

 

[-guerilla-]

I wonder what the next episode of "a better way to *insert technique here*"...

Guerrilla, can you share how you brush your teeth and how you cook eggs? I bet you have a scientific method, better than the traditional ways to share with us.

I like the sports science of martial arts

I also cant stand conventional wisdom and superstitious BS

What you expect me to talk about on this forum?

Entertains me to see how many people still have highschool sports lore and strip mall forged opinions

Everything i say is backed up with real world current examples, verifiable experience and ssimplified scientific explanations

 

[-guerilla-]

I agree to an extent, but what reactionary focus come into play with an overhand, it applies for straight punches to some degree, but I'm not sure about hooks and overhands where you are relying heavily on circular momentum, to generate force.
The way I see it (and I have a very limited understanding of physics) is you are either throwing a rock at your opponent or a sponge. Bracing doesn't provide any more force it mearly creates a more solid weapon, therefore maximizing weight tranferal is still the primary generator of force.

Exactally

If you are designing a battering ram you dont want much suspension between its impact point and its bracing...in fact you want as little flex as the brace can handle

"circular momentum" strikes are different whereas jabs and crosses (including many body punches) are always best with a flat base foot because there is less "suspension" in the legs than being up on your toes

Plus it helps people rember not to "reach out" too far over their hips

 

[Sensei Student]

Float like a butterfly until you're about to land that vicious knock out punch then you want to plant your feet and throw bombs.

Only times you should do that is if they're cornered or you decided to slug it out via Holloway v Lamas.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Julian Jackson and Earnie Shavers hit harder than Tyson did and they went up on the ball of their back foot...

I'm much more inclined to trust @Sano who actually has a masters degree in this shit.

 

[SandisLL]

Earnie Shavers

And Foreman.
In 70 ies they were considered as the hardest punchers.
&
For an actual beating appears that not less important is a) usage of combos b) speed with what one delivers these combos and c) speed with what you start deliver stuff , d) where and at what angles it landed, e) how moves opponent in impact moment....
And of course is opponent already half debilitated or no.... when your punch landed on him.
-
Looks that faster working and smaller version of Mike from 1987-1989 was brilliant effective version, the best version of Mike.
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Ali in 60 ies and Holmes 1978-1982 were pretty effective their version….