Float like a butterfly OR hit like a truck...a better way to throw hands!!

[-guerilla-]

Not Wilder, not Joe Louis, not Ernie Shavers.
It's biomechanics, you need to lift your heel at least a bit to allow hip rotation.

EVERYBODY cheats their power with the tipping cross when they reach out too far

The hardest punchers dont reach too far from their base

You can tip over your front leg and raise your rear leg completely off the ground yet deliver enough power to ko your opponant with speed alone

Its just not the best way to throw your straight punches

You dont need to "rotate" your hips to throw a powerful strike

"Stabbing" like a spear hits harder than "throwing" like a ball but either strike can get the job done

Have a look at this fighters cross

He has a 100% KO rate

 

[-guerilla-]

Actually there is an exception: when you throw hooks close in parrallel stance. Then the heels stay on the ground but the foot isn't really flat, you still lift the outer side of the base foot.

Like here
View attachment 707531

I have said many times that the flat rear base foot is for straight punches that stab like a spear

Not "centrifugal" hooks and uppercuts...those punches DO require hip rotation unlike straight punches

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Again, you're not providing any actual evidence other than the "push against a wall" schtick which isn't at all scientific (how powerful something 'feels' doesn't actually correlate to how powerful something is) and single frame shots of people punching which are cherrypicked to favour your thesis.

Get some actual science into your posts and then I might listen.

Also, you don't need to rotate your hips to throw a powerful rear-hand punch? No idea how you're managing that.

 

[spinup]

EVERYBODY cheats their power with the tipping cross when they reach out too far

No

The hardest punchers dont reach too far from their base

No they don't, they still lift their back heel.

You can tip over your front leg and raise your rear leg completely off the ground yet deliver enough power to ko your opponant with speed alone

Its just not the best way to throw your straight punches

Yes it is.

You dont need to "rotate" your hips to throw a powerful strike

Yes, you do.
And you need to push your back heel off the ground to thrust forward.

"Stabbing" like a spear hits harder than "throwing" like a ball but either strike can get the job done

need to push the back heel either way.

Have a look at this fighters cross
He has a 100% KO rate

It's Edwin Valero.
Yes he does lift his back heel every times he throws a power cross, even at short distance, even in the example you show.

That's delusional, all the facts are against you, even the ones you present as arguments.

 

[-guerilla-]

Again, you're not providing any actual evidence other than the "push against a wall" schtick which isn't at all scientific (how powerful something 'feels' doesn't actually correlate to how powerful something is) and single frame shots of people punching which are cherrypicked to favour your thesis.

Get some actual science into your posts and then I might listen.

Also, you don't need to rotate your hips to throw a powerful rear-hand punch? No idea how you're managing that.

Old school fight fallacies Die Hard

Pushing against the wall is a perfect physical exercise to prove that your weight is most heavy in your fist when you are in a pushing posture with your rear foot firmly planted flat

You can understand the principal very clearly in the Kimbo Slice ko loss vs seth P

A jab thrown at minimal distance with zero "hip rotation" koed kimbo BECAUSE seth was braced against the wall and his punch had complete bracing

The tipping punch simply removes all your bracing and replaces it with speed alone

You can get BOTH (weight and speed) if you throw your straight punches with extreme velocity while keeping your legs deeply rooted on a flat foot base

Turning up on your toes puts a spring in between the mat and your body that absorbs shock

You can "launch" with it but it then becomes speed at the cost of weight and often leaves you off balance and vulnerable to counter strikes


*there's a better way to punch

 

[-guerilla-]

No

No they don't, they still lift their back heel.

Yes it is.

Yes, you do.
And you need to push your back heel off the ground to thrust forward.

need to push the back heel either way.


It's Edwin Valero.
Yes he does lift his back heel every times he throws a power cross, even at short distance, even in the example you show.

That's delusional, all the facts are against you, even the ones you present as arguments.

 

[-guerilla-]

The perfect form for the cross punch... short compact and allows for quick offensive or defensive acrions

 

[-guerilla-]

This is a TYPE of cross punch that relies mostly on speed

Its not "wrong"... its simply not the best way to hit the hardest by adding the maximum amount of weight (potential Energy) to the cross



In contrast to the previous photo (conventional "momentum" cross)
A small adjustment in foot posture (as demonstrated by this fighter with a 100% ko rate)
This is the best way to punch as it puts more BODY WEIGHT into the strike and does not rely soley on speed simply because of the well planted flat base foot
(push posture)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Valero
Total fights 27
Wins 27
Wins by KO 27
Losses 0

 

[-guerilla-]

Cro cop kicked and threw many punches with the flat foot style

This is superior for power, counters and TDD however it demands more careful footwork

 

[spinup]

Hermetic to facts and delusional. Well, I tried.

 

[-guerilla-]

Hermetic to facts and delusional. Well, I tried.

You dont need to go up on your toes to rotate so you can hit "properly"

You can throw a jab or a cross with your feet flat on the ground

Its a different type of punch designed to crash thru a strong defense

Its like stabbing a spear not like throwing a ball

It also sets you up better for counters because it encourages one to avoid leaning out and overreaching

Learn from lennox lewis, cro cop and stan the man

 

[-guerilla-]

This photo sums up the argument...

"tipping" over your front foot robs you of power and all the other benefits of a good base for a bit more reach

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

It is possible to go up on the ball of your rear foot without leaning like that. Sinister has an entire thread dedicated to his drill to help teach people to avoid doing so (among other things).

 

[-guerilla-]

It is possible to go up on the ball of your rear foot without leaning like that. Sinister has an entire thread dedicated to his drill to help teach people to avoid doing so (among other things).

Yes, leaning is a separate issue and can be a problem whether you are on the ball or the flat of your foot however when you drill the flat foot style people are far less likley to lose their from and will usually do a better job keeping their shoulders over their hips

Theres nothing "wrong" with the traditional style of technique

Its just that many don't realize there's another way to throw your straight punches with even more force and follow-up opportunity

MMA striking will evolve and leave some things behind in the ring...ali style "dancing" and rolling up on your foots "ball" as you kick and punch will be abandoned for a more "grounded" style of striking where athletes maintain a deeper more flat footed stance

 

[Buddy Revell]

It is possible to go up on the ball of your rear foot without leaning like that. Sinister has an entire thread dedicated to his drill to help teach people to avoid doing so (among other things).

As long as you're transferring your bodyweight from the back to the front there's really not much to be gained from lifting the rear foot off the ground as opposed to just going up onto the toes, and the downside is that it makes you less able to defend and counter off the rear hand.

I'm not saying you can't get away with it -- i'm just saying t's not ideal. You can get away with it if your head is off the center line, especially like Valero and many other southpaws, meaning on the outside of your opponents shoulder (notice how in both Valero screen captures both his head and lead foot are outside the orthodox fighters lead shoulder. That's why he could do it without getting tagged).

But while Valero or a southpaw can easily just use their forward momentum to fall off to their right, generally out of harms way, an orthodox guy usually wouldn't have that luxury. He would most likely have to either contend with a right hook -- or duck and weave back to the right to avoid a left hook. And both are much damn near impossible to do if your rear foot is off the ground.

And as a general rule i would caution against using Heavyweight boxers or MMA fighters as gauges for what is correct or sound as far as technique goes. Heavyweights are usually the sloppiest and crudest boxers and martial artists, who can get away with things because of gross size and weight advantages.

 

[-guerilla-]

As long as you're transferring your bodyweight from the back to the front there's really not much to be gained from lifting the rear foot off the ground as opposed to just going up onto the toes, and the downside is that it makes you less able to defend and counter off the rear hand.

I'm not saying you can't get away with it -- i'm just saying t's not ideal. You can get away with it if your head is off the center line, especially like Valero and many other southpaws, meaning on the outside of your opponents shoulder (notice how in both Valero screen captures both his head and lead foot are outside the orthodox fighters lead shoulder. That's why he could do it without getting tagged).

But while Valero or a southpaw can easily just use their forward momentum to fall off to their right, generally out of harms way, an orthodox guy usually wouldn't have that luxury. He would most likely have to either contend with a right hook -- or duck and weave back to the right to avoid a left hook. And both are much damn near impossible to do if your rear foot is off the ground.

And as a general rule i would caution against using Heavyweight boxers or MMA fighters as gauges for what is correct or sound as far as technique goes. Heavyweights are usually the sloppiest and crudest boxers and martial artists, who can get away with things because of gross size and weight advantages.

you have an excellent point as heavyweights are very different that other weight classes

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...h-shouldnt-be-training-heavy-weights.4047737/

there is ZERO benefit to lifting your rear foot off the ground with your cross but it happens in every single bout and every single round in every single fight sport because athletes so commonly use poor form and "reach" out trying to find their target

its poor form and 100% detrimental to your strike

its better to have your rear foot planted FLAT as you throw ESPECIALLY your straight jab and cross

traditionally strikers are taught to roll up on the ball of their rear foot to "pivot for power"

this is silly biometric fallacy that is a detriment to MMA striking

 

[Buddy Revell]

you have an excellent point as heavyweights are very different that other weight classes

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...h-shouldnt-be-training-heavy-weights.4047737/

there is ZERO benefit to lifting your rear foot off the ground with your cross but it happens in every single bout and every single round in every single fight sport because athletes so commonly use poor form and "reach" out trying to find their target

its poor form and 100% detrimental to your strike

its better to have your rear foot planted FLAT as you throw ESPECIALLY your straight jab and cross

traditionally strikers are taught to roll up on the ball of their rear foot to "pivot for power"

this is silly biometric fallacy that is a detriment to MMA striking

Thanks for the link, i'm gonna have to dive into that thread. Looks interesting. Don't disagree with any of your points.
I would add though, that some technically sound techniques do put a fighter in a position where, if only for a fraction of a second, one or both of their feet will be off the ground. One example, and forgive me is someone's posted this already...

... and THAT'S why they call it a leaping left hook. Both feet off the ground. It worked for Smokin' Joe many a time, but not for many other fighters (i think RJJ could as well). Nothing wrong with it IF you can pull it off.

 

[-guerilla-]

Thanks for the link, i'm gonna have to dive into that thread. Looks interesting. Don't disagree with any of your points.
I would add though, that some technically sound techniques do put a fighter in a position where, if only for a fraction of a second, one or both of their feet will be off the ground. One example, and forgive me is someone's posted this already...

... and THAT'S why they call it a leaping left hook. Both feet off the ground. It worked for Smokin' Joe many a time, but not for many other fighters (i think RJJ could as well). Nothing wrong with it IF you can pull it off.

Yeah...the superman punch
(and jumping hook) in addition to jumping kicks are a great exapmple of the fact that you dont NEED to be planted to deliver a solid strike (especially "centrifugal" strikes like hooks and roundkicks)

Its phenomenally better to be planted for especially your "pushing" strikes like the teep kick and even a jab can ko an opponant if you are well braced against a wall for example

 

[-guerilla-]

 

[Cole train]

Think ts was a wrestling coach