For grappling endurance, can you just do kettlebells and call it quits?

[maximus__]

Intentionally bypassing the word filter like he did will put him well on his way to a ban, but someone would probably have to report it.

Do we have mods in this forum even? I always forget that it's not War room or pre 2010 rules in here anymore haha.

 

[cmw43]

For me doing BJJ apart from just doing more rounds I found the best things for my cardio are running hills and doing HIIT workouts with moderate weights 40 seconds on, 20 seconds off for 30 minutes.

 

[Poon Goon]

Do we have mods in this forum even? I always forget that it's not War room or pre 2010 rules in here anymore haha.

I doubt it, that's why I said someone would probably need to report it. I think his obvious trolling is more offensive than the word filter thing, but I ain't no snitch

 

[maximus__]

I hate to keep posting in this troll thread but agree with your posts and wanted to respond. I used to be more read up on the science but over the years have just settled into routines that work for me. But what you are saying becomes self-evident when someone trains with a heart rate monitor. HR is by far the most important metric in assessing cardio, and training "cardio" without monitoring HR is like training benchpress but not monitoring how much weight you're lifting.

If you boil everything down, cardio training is about conditioning your body to perform the maximum amount of work with the least amount of exertion. And HR is the best metric for exertion across different modes of training. I agree with you that around 30+ minutes is the recommended minimum time of SS cardio to produce positive adaptations and that's because it takes about 10-15 minutes of SS activity before your body is fully warmed up, you have a good sweat going and your HR is fully elevated.

I can't stress enough that proper cardio conditioning requires constantly elevated HR for 20-30 min NOT intermittent spikes like lifting weights, which is mostly anaerobic. For me, the best training mode for stressing HR is running - I can maintain around 175 bpm at race pace and that's been pretty consistent for more than 30 years. I like to finish my runs with an all out sprint to push my anaerobic threshold and my max HR has always been around 200 bpm although the highest I've pushed it lately was 192 bpm 2 weeks ago and that might actually be my max HR now at 49 yo. But during a run, I can readily increase my HR to whatever I want up to max HR simply by running faster.

Conversely, the highest HR I've achieved in a dead sprint on a road bike is 165 bpm and in swimming 152 bpm. I hit 163 bpm doing a 5 RM deadlift when I'm fully warm and only around 149 doing bench. On a versaclimber I briefly hit 185 and around 180 on a rower. But I can't maintain anywhere near those HRs on these activities for more than MAYBE a minute because I'm at muscle failure or am about to crash and/or drown from the exertion. Max sustainable HR on those activities is WELL below 175 bpm for me.

With cardio training, your resting HR will go down because your heart and lungs will be stronger and that's a benefit in any sport. If your RHR is >65 bpm, you're out of shape. Ideally, you want your RHR <60. There's a reason combat sports athletes do a lot of road work. Off the top of my head, Michael Bisping said his RHR was 34 before he fought Rockhold, which is fucking amazing for a 200+ lbs athlete.

May aswell turn the troll thread into a useful discussion is my theory. That's why I kept posting and linked the FAQ that covers all this.

Most of what you are saying is spot on and similar to what I found in terms of other cardio activities beside running in terms of the heart rate numbers not tracking across completely. I remember trying to hold 147 bpm on a mountain bike outside once, it felt like a borderline sprint trial the entire session. Little did I know I was riding at threshold pace for most of the session.

One thing from your post I want to confirm is that you say you maintain 175 bpm as a race pace? That's not your training pace for long runs is it? If it is you are either fit as hell or running way too fast for training what we are talking about.

What really got me interested in heart rate training was applying it to martial arts training and tactical situations. To simplify the science, once you get above 70% of your Max HR, each percentage jump removes cognitive function. When you are up around 85-95% of your Max HR you lose the ability to apply fine motor skills and think cognitively. It's why you see fighters shoot when they are rocked if they are wrestlers, because they go into fight or flight when they hit 100%. They revert to gross motor patterns they have trained their entire lives.

70% is the average sweet spot for most people, like with LSS running and being able to run all day, it's that sparring intensity where you can throw with reasonable technique and power, without gassing out.

The theory behind it for combat sports and tactical athletes is to have that 70% zone as high as possible. It's a sustainable intensity for training and makes it easier to recover and return to when you do get spiked up to 100% in a fight or tactical situation.

 

[ChickenBrother]

May aswell turn the troll thread into a useful discussion is my theory. That's why I kept posting and linked the FAQ that covers all this.

Most of what you are saying is spot on and similar to what I found in terms of other cardio activities beside running in terms of the heart rate numbers not tracking across completely. I remember trying to hold 147 bpm on a mountain bike outside once, it felt like a borderline sprint trial the entire session. Little did I know I was riding at threshold pace for most of the session.

One thing from your post I want to confirm is that you say you maintain 175 bpm as a race pace? That's not your training pace for long runs is it? If it is you are either fit as hell or running way too fast for training what we are talking about.

What really got me interested in heart rate training was applying it to martial arts training and tactical situations. To simplify the science, once you get above 70% of your Max HR, each percentage jump removes cognitive function. When you are up around 85-95% of your Max HR you lose the ability to apply fine motor skills and think cognitively. It's why you see fighters shoot when they are rocked if they are wrestlers, because they go into fight or flight when they hit 100%. They revert to gross motor patterns they have trained their entire lives.

70% is the average sweet spot for most people, like with LSS running and being able to run all day, it's that sparring intensity where you can throw with reasonable technique and power, without gassing out.

The theory behind it for combat sports and tactical athletes is to have that 70% zone as high as possible. It's a sustainable intensity for training and makes it easier to recover and return to when you do get spiked up to 100% in a fight or tactical situation.

Yeah I think my steady state HR on a road or mountain bike on flats was mid 140's and that's if I'm pedaling my ass off. Definitely less taxing than running. On a run, ~175 bpm is my anaerobic threshold for race pace. I can maintain that for around 20 minutes before going balls out for the last minute to push 200 bpm if I'm hauling ass trying for a 5K PR. When I used to run more often, I could also sustain that HR for 10K and possibly longer (but with pace going down the longer the distance). On a regular training run, I do around 163 bpm average when I'm in good running shape, although it's a few bpm higher (at a slower pace) if I'm in generally good shape but haven't been focused on running. The better running shape I'm in, the lower my steady state HR is at a given pace and through training, you get very attuned to what 150, 160 170 bpm feels like and how long you can maintain that level of exertion.

Like you, combat sports and tactical situations were what motivated me to learn more about HR training. But it's always killed me that there's no practical HR monitor that will stay on during wrestling/boxing/Judo/BJJ sparring. Anecdotally, I feel like my average HR during intense rolls or competition is still well below the 170's I can sustain in a cardio session, but will be punctuated with brief spikes and might even be gunning it above 180 bpm when it's late in the match, your lungs are on fire and you're fighting for that last TD, reversal or escape. And yeah, my fine motor skills turn to dogshit as I approach max HR lol. If I'm required to do anything more complex than putting one foot in front of the other as fast as possible, I'm going to be a panic wrestler which for me is diving in for a shitty head and arm throw, hail mary drop knee seoi nage or sumi gaeshi all of which will be low % when I'm that spent.

But I'm convinced that outside of sport specific skills training, cardio training builds and maintains your cardio base which will lead to better performance when you're taxed as well as faster recovery. As you say, you want that 70% zone to be as high as possible.

 

[maximus__]

Yeah I think my steady state HR on a road or mountain bike on flats was mid 140's and that's if I'm pedaling my ass off. Definitely less taxing than running. On a run, ~175 bpm is my anaerobic threshold for race pace. I can maintain that for around 20 minutes before going balls out for the last minute to push 200 bpm if I'm hauling ass trying for a 5K PR. When I used to run more frequently, I could also sustain that HR for 10K and possibly longer (but with pace going down the longer the distance). On a regular training run, I do around 163 bpm average when I'm in good running shape, although it's a few bpm higher (at a slower pace) if I'm in generally good shape but haven't been focused on running. The better running shape I'm in, the lower my steady state HR is at a given pace and through training, you get very attuned to what 150, 160 170 bpm feels like and how long you can maintain that level of exertion.

Like you, combat sports and tactical situations were what motivated me to learn more about HR training. But it's always killed me that there's no practical HR monitor that will stay on during wrestling/boxing/Judo/BJJ sparring. Anecdotally, I feel like my average HR during intense rolls or competition is still well below the 170's I can sustain in a cardio session, but will be punctuated with brief spikes and might even be gunning it above 180 bpm when it's late in the match, your lungs are on fire and you're fighting for that last TD, reversal or escape. And yeah, my fine motor skills turn to dogshit as I approach max HR lol. If I'm required to do anything more complex than putting one foot in front of the other as fast as possible, I'm going to be a panic wrestler which for me is diving in for a shitty head and arm throw, hail mary drop knee seoi nage or sumi gaeshi all of which will be low % when I'm that spent.

But I'm convinced that outside of sport specific skills training, cardio training builds and maintains your cardio base which will lead to better performance when you're taxed as well as faster recovery. As you say, you want that 70% zone to be as high as possible.

We definitely seem to be in agreement except your ability to run craps all over mine if your easy runs are done at 163bpm. I sit around 145-150 bpm but usually cruise around 137 with my usual route. It has both downhills and uphills so I take it pretty easy. It seems to work well to drop that bpm down with the volume of training I get through the week.

I easily stay in a low HR during BJJ training, but it's impossible during MMA and harder during stand up training. I do find that I recover much better than others between rounds and usually I am good to go pretty quickly. I can also recover within a round compared to other people who can't. Their max effort is higher, but my effort is sustainable through the entire round.

I would love to wear a heart rate monitor during training just to see because I can usually hold a conversation during most rolls or pass the talk test. That doesn't necessarily mean I am winning those rounds and I do sometimes find I lack the ability to make that switch into a hard round until I get very warm. It would be good to see different rounds when I do up that intensity with a heart rate monitor. A few guys at my gym wear them and it's pretty annoying when you cop one to the head in a sprawl. I have seen arm band ones that seems to work ok under a rashguard. I haven't personally tried one, but the armband is virtually unnoticeable when my training partners use them as opposed to people fiddling with a chest monitor all the time.

 

[ChickenBrother]

We definitely seem to be in agreement except your ability to run craps all over mine if your easy runs are done at 163bpm. I sit around 145-150 bpm but usually cruise around 137 with my usual route. It has both downhills and uphills so I take it pretty easy. It seems to work well to drop that bpm down with the volume of training I get through the week.

I easily stay in a low HR during BJJ training, but it's impossible during MMA and harder during stand up training. I do find that I recover much better than others between rounds and usually I am good to go pretty quickly. I can also recover within a round compared to other people who can't. Their max effort is higher, but my effort is sustainable through the entire round.

I would love to wear a heart rate monitor during training just to see because I can usually hold a conversation during most rolls or pass the talk test. That doesn't necessarily mean I am winning those rounds and I do sometimes find I lack the ability to make that switch into a hard round until I get very warm. It would be good to see different rounds when I do up that intensity with a heart rate monitor. A few guys at my gym wear them and it's pretty annoying when you cop one to the head in a sprawl. I have seen arm band ones that seems to work ok under a rashguard. I haven't personally tried one, but the armband is virtually unnoticeable when my training partners use them as opposed to people fiddling with a chest monitor all the time.

Do you know your max HR? I'm thinking maybe our cruising run HRs are similar as a % of max HR? 163 isn't an "easy run" for me, more like I can yell out a few words but can't talk continuously - I'm focused on the run but not going balls out, which is my typical training run. At 175 bpm my lungs are hurting and legs are barely getting rid of the lactic acid as fast as they're producing it. Anything over that sustained and I'm in the process of blowing my wad and have <1 minute before I need to take a breather.

IME the best way to push your cardio is by doing whatever mode of training you're most efficient at - that way you can just focus on pushing the pace. And it has to be prior to muscle failure because at that point, you're not performing the exercise properly anymore. For most activities other than running, I'm limited by muscle failure prior to maxing out my cardio system and that includes combat sports. Like if I just did continuous blast doubles or 1-2-3-4 combos on a heavy bag, I doubt I could get my HR up to 170 before my legs and/or arms are jelly.

I've only tried to wear a chest strap once or twice under a gi and it just doesn't work. Kept losing contact during the roll and didn't get a good data read. But the arm band ones are less restrictive and that's what I wear for my runs now. I have the Scosche Rythm+. You've rolled with guys with one of those under a long sleeve rashguard and it doesn't get completely fucked up or lose contact during the roll?

 

[maximus__]

Do you know your max HR? I'm thinking maybe our cruising run HRs are similar as a % of max HR? 163 isn't an "easy run" for me, more like I can yell out a few words but can't talk continuously - I'm focused on the run but not going balls out, which is my typical training run. At 175 bpm my lungs are hurting and legs are barely getting rid of the lactic acid as fast as they're producing it. Anything over that sustained and I'm in the process of blowing my wad and have <1 minute before I need to take a breather.

IME the best way to push your cardio is by doing whatever mode of training you're most efficient at - that way you can just focus on pushing the pace. And it has to be prior to muscle failure because at that point, you're not performing the exercise properly anymore. For most activities other than running, I'm limited by muscle failure prior to maxing out my cardio system and that includes combat sports. Like if I just did continuous blast doubles or 1-2-3-4 combos on a heavy bag, I doubt I could get my HR up to 170 before my legs and/or arms are jelly.

I've only tried to wear a chest strap once or twice under a gi and it just doesn't work. Kept losing contact during the roll and didn't get a good data read. But the arm band ones are less restrictive and that's what I wear for my runs now. I have the Scosche Rythm+. You've rolled with guys with one of those under a long sleeve rashguard and it doesn't get completely fucked up or lose contact during the roll?

My Max HR would be high 180s based off a calculator. I use a maffetone calculator to calculate my easy runs and follow the recommendations around injuries and sickness dropping it down and end up around 147 or so. I could probably test it and run faster, but my watch keeps telling me I am setting easy PRs , so I don't feel a need to change it. Everything I have read seems to say it make no difference if I run at 137 vs 147 so I just let it settle in between that range. It's an extremely easy run and I nasal breath the entire way. It includes up hill and down hill portions so I am pretty happy with that.

I used to do my runs at a higher bpm but found that going on the lower side works better and allows me to run faster in the long run. It definitely takes me longer to get going but when I want to push the pace a bit I can sit around where you are saying comfortably, but I wouldn't use that as my training pace. Unless you are an elite runner that 163bpm would be way over the maffetone recommended rate unless you are 20 years old. That doesn't mean you should change anything though if it works for you.

Yeah 100% on the arm HR monitor. GUys at my gym wear them and I am pretty close to going that way over a chest strap. The chest strap guys regularly are adjusting them and have issues with positions and it can get annoying having a hard plastic object grinding into you all the time in a roll. The arm one is fine even during cross faces, I haven't seen any major issues with it and was looking at getting one myself.

 

[ChickenBrother]

My Max HR would be high 180s based off a calculator. I use a maffetone calculator to calculate my easy runs and follow the recommendations around injuries and sickness dropping it down and end up around 147 or so. I could probably test it and run faster, but my watch keeps telling me I am setting easy PRs , so I don't feel a need to change it. Everything I have read seems to say it make no difference if I run at 137 vs 147 so I just let it settle in between that range. It's an extremely easy run and I nasal breath the entire way. It includes up hill and down hill portions so I am pretty happy with that.

I used to do my runs at a higher bpm but found that going on the lower side works better and allows me to run faster in the long run. It definitely takes me longer to get going but when I want to push the pace a bit I can sit around where you are saying comfortably, but I wouldn't use that as my training pace. Unless you are an elite runner that 163bpm would be way over the maffetone recommended rate unless you are 20 years old. That doesn't mean you should change anything though if it works for you.

Yeah 100% on the arm HR monitor. GUys at my gym wear them and I am pretty close to going that way over a chest strap. The chest strap guys regularly are adjusting them and have issues with positions and it can get annoying having a hard plastic object grinding into you all the time in a roll. The arm one is fine even during cross faces, I haven't seen any major issues with it and was looking at getting one myself.

I'd like to try the arm band during a roll - but I guess you still need to wear the watch? No way that flies at my gym - I have a clunky Polar V800 that could injure someone. And the range is only like 5 feet, so would have to leave the watch off the mat and keep the roll in close proximity. Under a gi, the chest strap seems like it'd be less intrusive but the main issue is how to keep the watch nearby.

Was just reading up on maffetone and it sounds reasonable to me, only issue I have is it appears to base the formula on [180] minus your age, which I know is bullshit. The outdated formula for max HR used to be 220 minus your age but IIRC that was based on a study sample of like 15 untrained scrubs of various ages. With consistent training, I know firsthand that your max HR does NOT go down by 1/year. The first time I tested it was late 90's in an aerobic fitness class I took in college. The instructor was a national level triathlete who made us do crazy shit to teach us about fitness. For the DOMS class he smoked us for 40 minutes sprinting up and down the bleachers while screaming at us to go harder. Then we met again in 2 days to talk about how fucking sore we were while he explained the science behind it.

For the max HR class, we all strapped on HR monitors and he smoked us on a fast hilly run and then encouraged everyone to sprint the last uphill as fast as possible and if we threw up or passed out that was OK. I hit 201 bpm and I was 21. Since then I've periodically replicated this and have consistently hit mid to high 190's for almost 30 years.

But my default mode is "go hard or go home" like I learned from my HS wrestling coach. It took me until my 40's to realize that planned deload days and NOT going to failure every set every workout might actually help me lift more weight. I've eased up with age but I probably still push the pace on runs faster than I need to for basic conditioning. But I think that depends on your goals. If your focus is road racing, you need to push the pace (and HR) regularly to optimize your times. Just like a dedicated powerlifter needs to put more emphasis on heavy weights (and recovery) than a combat sports athlete does. My primary goals are now 1) general health and 2) combat sports primarily grappling + takedowns, with both running and barbell training as ancillaries.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

When a sport is so complicated that you need a heart rate monitor to do it ill just quit that sport.

 

[ChickenBrother]

When a sport is so complicated that you need a heart rate monitor to do it ill just quit that sport.

This is like saying if [powerlifting] is so complicated you need to know your weight, protein intake and bf% to do it, it's too damn hard.

You don't need to know that stuff to lift, just like you don't need a HR monitor to run - people have done both for 1000s of years without them. But monitoring your HR (in conjunction with run time and speed) can help you train and compete smarter.

 

[spdrew2143]

When a sport is so complicated that you need a heart rate monitor to do it ill just quit that sport.

Since when did you become an expert on conditioning? Baseball players are not know for being physically fit.

 

[spdrew2143]

This is like saying if [powerlifting] is so complicated you need to know your weight, protein intake and bf% to do it, it's too damn hard.

You don't need to know that stuff to lift, just like you don't need a HR monitor to run - people have done both for 1000s of years without them. But monitoring your HR (in conjunction with run time and speed) can help you train and compete smarter.

Poker doesn't know much about powerlifting, most of it goes over his head.

 

[maximus__]

I'd like to try the arm band during a roll - but I guess you still need to wear the watch? No way that flies at my gym - I have a clunky Polar V800 made of metal that could injure someone. And the range is only like 5 feet, so would have to leave the watch off the mat and keep the roll in close proximity. Under a gi, the chest strap seems like it'd be less intrusive but the main issue is how to keep the watch nearby.

Was just reading up on maffetone and it sounds reasonable to me, only issue I have is it appears to base the formula on [180] minus your age, which I know is bullshit. The outdated formula for max HR used to be 220 minus your age but IIRC that was based on a study sample of like 15 untrained scrubs of various ages. With consistent training, I know firsthand that your max HR does NOT go down by 1/year. The first time I tested it was late 90's in an aerobic fitness class I took in college. The instructor was a national level triathlete who made us do crazy shit to teach us about fitness. For the DOMS class he smoked us for 40 minutes sprinting up and down the bleachers while screaming at us to go harder. Then we met again in 2 days to talk about how fucking sore we were while he explained the science behind it.

For the max HR class, we all strapped on HR monitors and he smoked us on a fast hilly run and then encouraged everyone to sprint the last uphill as fast as possible and if we threw up or passed out that was OK. I hit 201 bpm and I was 21. Since then I've periodically replicated this and have consistently hit mid to high 190's for almost 30 years.

But my default mode is "go hard or go home" like I learned from my HS wrestling coach. It took me until my 40's to realize that planned deload days and NOT going to failure every set every workout might actually help me lift more weight. I've eased up with age but I probably still push the pace on runs faster than I need to for basic conditioning. But I think that depends on your goals. If your main focus is road races, you need to push the pace (and HR) regularly to optimize your times. Just like a dedicated powerlifter needs to put more emphasis on heavy weights (and recovery) than a combat sports athlete does. My primary goals are now 1) general health and 2) combat sports primarily grappling + takedowns, with both running and barbell training as ancillaries.

Most HR monitors the days have longer range than that and can hook up to your phone. That's what most people seem to do. That way you can sit it nearby with your gear and it should send data. Just need to make sure you hit start.

I will see if I can find it, but recently someone ran a test and the 180-age came out within 5 bpm of most peoples Max HR from more scientific testing. It's not a perfect test, but is within a couple BPM (from memory 5-10) of running a whole battery of tests required to actually get your Max HR. That's good enough for me and I would rather go on the easier side than the harder side in terms of managing HR and run volume.I also use a training max as opposed to an actual max for my lifting percentage based training blocks. All my lifts are calculated off an approximate 90% of my actual tested 1RM at the time.

I don't agree with the go hard and go home approach. I think we only have so many hard training sessions and competition level perfromances in us. I still train hard but only for a specific event I need to peak for.

Most of my training is about just staying consistent and very gradually building that base up. It takes longer but I have found I can maintain my lifting numbers and run times with minimal hard training sessions these days.

I won't be breaking any records, but would rather go hard in competition or for a specific event. I defintely need a dedicated block just to get used to that intensity though prior to being able to perfrom at that level.

 

[maximus__]

When a sport is so complicated that you need a heart rate monitor to do it ill just quit that sport.

It's less complicated than trying to work out weight jumps and percentages when you lift heavier weights.

At this point you can program the watches to beep at you when you go above a certain HR number. Outside of pressing stop/start it's easier than anything else.

 

[maximus__]

Poker doesn't know much about powerlifting, most of it goes over his head.

It's 3 lifts and you get 9 cracks at it and only need to hit 3 of them.
Throw in a heap of random gear (both equipment and "gear") and you are set.

All jokes aside this forum was awesome back in the day for powerliftng advice. Better than some actual lifting forums were.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Poker doesn't know much about powerlifting, most of it goes over his head.

It goes over your head is what you mean. You don’t really know much about anything except how to troll.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Drew how is it that you’ve spent this much time training for powerlifting and not even comparably stronger than national level powerlifters? How is it that you are so weak inside that you are so offended by what I have to say you have nothing better to do but troll me? You should be getting a paid salary for your skills.

 

[spdrew2143]

Drew how is it that you’ve spent this much time training for powerlifting and not even comparably stronger than national level powerlifters? How is it that you are so weak inside that you are so offended by what I have to say you have nothing better to do but troll me? You should be getting a paid salary for your skills.

I'm a national level powerlifter like you're a pro baseball player.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I'm a national level powerlifter like you're a pro baseball player.

So what is your point with that statement?