How beautiful was Paul Craig's armbar (Karel Pravec related)

[ChickenBrother]

Craig definitely does it quite different from what Pravec is showing here. Though Craig isn't grabbing Hill's right elbow with his left hand. He's pinning Hill's right hand in his armpit and grabbing behind Hill's left elbow with his left hand.

Bottom line I made this thread to talk about the hand in armpit grip. There is much to be explored in MMA with this position. I suspect it's even easier to execute in MMA than BJJ because of the glove.

Yup. Pravec says exactly this where I marked the video above. I'm agreeing with you.

 

[rmongler]

I suspect it's even easier to execute in MMA than BJJ because of the glove.

And also because guys are more likely to be posting to make space to begin with (for standing up or throwing punches or so on).

 

[EndlessCritic]

And also because guys are more likely to be posting to make space to begin with (for standing up or throwing punches or so on).

I don't think most guys in MMA post at the armpit though. In MMA, you can post on the guy's jaw and pound him to death.

 

[Zankou]

Posting in the armpits is usually done as a guard break, but you don’t usually leave your hands there. You gotta control those hips and pin them down as soon as the guard opens. If you let the guy raise his hips while your arms are extended, well, that’s a mistake.

 

[rmongler]

I don't think most guys in MMA post at the armpit though. In MMA, you can post on the guy's jaw and pound him to death.

Well yes, but wasn't this thread supposed to be about armbarring guys posting under the arms?

You can armbar guys posting on the neck too, with essentially the same movement as you might on posting against the torso or armpits as well. It can be harder since you may need to rock him forward and shoot your own torso up to create the trap between your chest his arm and your arm, but the biggest difference maker isn't necessarily where he's posting, but what he is doing with his hips while doing so. If his hips are back, then the arm bar is easy; if his hips are forward and driving through, then he can use that as a lever for pulling his own upper body back, basic best practices for defusing closed guard submission attempts.

 

[freakroor]

nice armbar, although i wonder if he could have pulled it off without mma gloves. An overhook seems much more secure. what are the advantages of this hand-in-armpit technique? does it replace the overhook?

 

[EndlessCritic]

nice armbar, although i wonder if he could have pulled it off without mma gloves. An overhook seems much more secure. what are the advantages of this hand-in-armpit technique? does it replace the overhook?

The "problem" with the overhook is two-fold. You can generally only obtain it if you close the space, but you can generally only attack with it if you create space. So even if you obtain it, there are good players who are pretty good at stalling out the position and preventing you from effectively attacking by getting your hips away. Now, if you have closed guard and you can obtain an overhook, you probably should go for it as a fairly good attacking option.

The hand in armpit position by contrast does not require you to close space to obtain it. From closed guard, you can control your opponent's posture by any means, create space by going feet on hips, and the hand in armpit attack can present itself as you're creating space. In this type of situation, it's possible to imagine your opponent will be too far away from you to overhook their arm, but close enough to catch the hand.

I say all of this having not rolled at all since March 2020, playing a lot of overhook closed guard, and having never actually played hand in armpit.

 

[maximus__]

The "problem" with the overhook is two-fold. You can generally only obtain it if you close the space, but you can generally only attack with it if you create space. So even if you obtain it, there are good players who are pretty good at stalling out the position and preventing you from effectively attacking by getting your hips away. Now, if you have closed guard and you can obtain an overhook, you probably should go for it as a fairly good attacking option.

The hand in armpit position by contrast does not require you to close space to obtain it. From closed guard, you can control your opponent's posture by any means, create space by going feet on hips, and the hand in armpit attack can present itself as you're creating space. In this type of situation, it's possible to imagine your opponent will be too far away from you to overhook their arm, but close enough to catch the hand.

I say all of this having not rolled at all since March 2020, playing a lot of overhook closed guard, and having never actually played hand in armpit.

It's an interesting grip but I think it would be much harder in no gi without the gloves or friction of a gi. The gi definitely helps but I have always been careful as I only have gotten the arm extended in the armpit in a training environment. I would always be worried about popping my training partners arms like a cutting armbar. Obviously like Hill tried you just turn the wrist to take the pressure off, but Craig switched and chased the other arm.

I have always just used a deeper under or over hook and then moved them into a more clamp guard position (it's used to all just be good closed guard when I started haha) to transition through belly down for the armbar. I usually roll people through now and finish on top. I finish from the top with the arm under the armpit because I can control it more to protect them.

I like the idea and the video you posted earlier from youtube I have watched so far. I still think it's limited in no gi, but definitely better than the traditional idea of just laying your forearm over the top of someone else's and hoping they are asleep when you throw the armbar up. If my hand was stuck in someone's armpit I would be 100% focused on defending that and preventing their hips coming up for triangles or armbars though.

 

[rmongler]

nice armbar, although i wonder if he could have pulled it off without mma gloves. An overhook seems much more secure. what are the advantages of this hand-in-armpit technique? does it replace the overhook?

It replaces an overhook in a similar manner to how a body triangle replaces an armtrap when attacking an RNC.

Which is to say, it doesn't; different pathways to a destination around different opponent conduct.

 

[rmongler]

The sequence vs Pyylampi in particular is almost exactly the same. The constant threat of the funk roll on opponents that stand, and attacking the back angle on opponents that crowd in close, canalizes them into the submission attacks.

 

[lakamas]

you can use this as an intermediary between the williams guard position but no decent grappler will place his hands on the mat like this hence you don't encounter it often in mma

 

[fullspar]

Pop goes the weasel

 

[EndlessCritic]

you can use this as an intermediary between the williams guard position but no decent grappler will place his hands on the mat like this hence you don't encounter it often in mma

There is a fair bit of williams guard in mma. bryce mitchell is probably the highest ranked guy who uses it.

 

[lakamas]

There is a fair bit of williams guard in mma. bryce mitchell is probably the highest ranked guy who uses it.

Williams guard is very good for mma since it kills most punches but it's hard to get there, hands are flying in mma