I don't understand people who rank Nogueira above Stipe

kevinramsdell said:
There you go again with the "oh he robbed this fighter and this fighter" lol dude you just don't understand how bad that makes you look. To get a valid argument across you need to be able to see both sides not just be completley bias for one side. That's where you're fucking up & why 95% of the thread is disagreeing with you.

Nogueria's prime was realistically over before he even came to the UFC. He had amassed 35 professional fights within 6.5 years and his body was completley beaten down from constant fighting, hard training down in Brazil and really tough fights. When he came to the UFC they had a weak HW division which allowed him to shine early. He beat Heath Herring who at the time only had 2 wins in 3.5 years and Tim Sylvia who would go on to get knocked out by Ray fucking Mercer only a year later. His head was out of the game once Couture came up and whooped his ass who Nogueria BEAT btw after Randy had just lost the HW title.

As many have already mentioned to you before, you need to analyze data from back then versus today and compare the number of top 10 ranked wins that Nogueria has versus how many Stipe has. If you're only argument is "oh well he beat DC and DC beat Barnett" then you might as well just move on my friend because MMA math isn't the way anybody should go when making an argument.
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Sherdog is the only place on the internet where Nog is ranked above Stipe lol. Most fans outside the bubble have Stipe as the HW GOAT

I'm talking about Nog's 3 (arguably 5) losses in his PRIDE prime and you're writing out an essay about his UFC run lol. Good job addressing the points made big guy
 
Elderly Nog didn't even get stopped by fucking Struve. Stipe is a decent HW in a very weak era.
 
Kkenway said:
Losses matter regardless of what excuses you want to make for them, plus Nog should've lost a few more decisions when he was younger.

I already charted out their best wins and it is exceedingly obvious that Stipe's are better.
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I think this is a good debate overall. But it’s definitely not fair to count all of Nog’s losses vs all of Stipe’s when Nog had far more fights in his career and fought for a longer period of time.
Nog had fights over 16 years. Stipe over 9 years.
Stipe is 19-3. At the same point in Nog’s career, he was 19-2-1 (Nog’s 22nd fight was a loss to Fedor).
 
BFoe said:
I think this is a good debate overall. But it’s definitely not fair to count all of Nog’s losses vs all of Stipe’s when Nog had far more fights in his career and fought for a longer period of time.
Nog had fights over 16 years. Stipe over 9 years.
Stipe is 19-3. At the same point in Nog’s career, he was 19-2-1 (Nog’s 22nd fight was a loss to Fedor).
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I agree

It's also not fair to simply count "top 10 wins" like that is the only metric that matters.

Nog has more top 10 wins than even Fedor, but no one ranks him above Fedor.
 
Goatenstein said:
Elderly Nog didn't even get stopped by fucking Struve. Stipe is a decent HW in a very weak era.
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He almost got stopped by Bob fucking Sapp.


They're two different fighters who faced very different competition in a very different era.

I don't think you can compare the two at all. Neither are the GOAT of the HW.
 
Except Top 10 HW wins Nogueira has a lot more other good wins like: Jeremy Horn, Henderson, Tamura, Inoue, Sapp, Goodridge, Volk Han
while Stipe has De Fries.

Losses matter a lot less. We are talking about fighters here, and more you fight, the more you will lose.
I would allways give a credit to old school guys who fought a lot, than modern who fight 1-2 times per year.
 
DayV said:
Except Top 10 HW wins Nogueira has a lot more other good wins like: Jeremy Horn, Henderson, Tamura, Inoue, Sapp, Goodridge, Volk Han
whle Stipe has De Fries.
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Not a single one of those wins are remotely close to "good"

They're all either undersized like Hendo and Horn or have zero technique like Sapp and Goodridge.
 
Kkenway said:
I agree

It's also not fair to simply count "top 10 wins" like that is the only metric that matters.

Nog has more top 10 wins than even Fedor, but no one ranks him above Fedor.
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No, because Fedor decimated prime Nog twice, plus beat more former/future UFC champs, which I think is a better metric than Top 10 wins.
I also disagree that outside of Sherdog, Stipe is HW GOAT. Most MMA sites/forums have Fedor as HW GOAT.
As to your question, I’m gonna have to think about it. Stipe may deserve to be ranked above Nog; but as pointed out, Nog fought a lot longer, had a lot more fights, and his overall body of work may be superior. Nog did have good wins and accomplishments in the UFC. But it’s hard to compare Stipe now to end-of-career Nog, because Stipe has nowhere near the longevity and number of fights.
 
BFoe said:
No, because Fedor decimated prime Nog twice, plus beat more former/future UFC champs, which I think is a better metric than Top 10 wins.
I also disagree that outside of Sherdog, Stipe is HW GOAT. Most MMA sites/forums have Fedor as HW GOAT.
As to your question, I’m gonna have to think about it. Stipe may deserve to be ranked above Nog; but as pointed out, Nog fought a lot longer, had a lot more fights, and his overall body of work may be superior. Nog did have good wins and accomplishments in the UFC. But it’s hard to compare Stipe now to end-of-career Nog, because Stipe has nowhere near the longevity and number of fights.
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I personally rank Fedor as the HW GOAT but I am relaying what I have seen on Twitter etc from mostly casual fans.
 
Kkenway said:
Not a single one of those wins are remotely close to "good"

They're all either undersized like Hendo and Horn or have zero technique like Sapp and Goodridge.
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Size does not matter for openweight fights in early 2000s. MMA is not a weigh in contest.

Horn and Henderson were very good. Henderson was even champion of RINGS HW tournament.
Sapp would beat a lot of Top MMA fighters from that time like Couture on that night in 2002. They would not be able to survive and submitt him like Nog did.

Tamura and Volk Han are pioneer greats of 90's, RINGS champions. No diffrence than when todays fighters beat older legends like Arlovski.

Goodridge had Top 10 win vs Valentijn Overeem just before Nog fight. Gary was first one to beat him after his wins vs Couture, Sobral, and Freeman. Gary had solid career unitll he was 40.
 
Late career losses don't matter much. Guys get old, pass their peak. It matters what they did on top. Nog has more ranked wins. He's probably #1 ever in terms of HW competition. Stipe's got those defenses but not the same depth.
 
I think the kind of logic used to state one is over the other is almost stupid. Mostly because you compare win/loss record in two very different eras,
I think that the overall level of heavyweight competition back in late 90's and first half of the 2000's was better. I'm not saying those guys would beat nowadays guys, no way, but I'd say that in context, it was probably more difficult to be in the top 5 than it is right now. That's the only instance where I'd compare the two eras.

Now, that's actually the thing, Nogueira has been in my top 5 heavyweights between mid/late 2001 to late 2009. 8 full years in the top 5 (most of the time n°2). Stipe, with less fights in an era with a division with lesser pool of talent has been in my top 5 heavyweight only since early/mid 2016, 4 years, but has spent more time as n°1. I guess if Miocic can stay, let's say 2 more years as n°1, I would definetly get him over Nogueira as a greater heavyweight; but not yet.
 
Kkenway said:
Nog's best wins:
1. Cro Cop
2. Barnett (whom he arguably lost to twice)
3. Green Werdum with no striking
4. Sergei
5. Randy

Stipe:
1. DC
2. Ngannou
3. Werdum
4. Reem
5. JDS

Nog in his absolute prime barely won a highly controversial decision over a Ricco that got KO'd by Sylvia in the UFC a few months previously.

Nog also has 10 losses to Stipe's two, and both of Stipe's losses were preceded by vicious eye pokes that weren't caught by the ref.

Nog is arguably 0-2 against Barnett, as he lost to him the first time and squeaked out another controversial decision in the rematch by lay and pray.

The only close decision of Stipe's career went against him (JDS 1), which was avenged brutally.
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Nog also got the shit beat out of him by Timmeh for most of that fight before he pulled out that late sub.
 
sampuncher said:
Ridiculous statement, with his logic I'm assuming a 28 year old DC is a better MMA fighter than a 40 year old DC.
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No, that's not my logic at all. DC wasn't even fighting at 28. DC isn't as good as he used to be and to me it's obvious. Werdum isn't and wasn't either at 38.
 
Different times.... nobody will ever understand this. Those guys Big Nog beat were elite. You see the same shit with fighters these days too.... fighters are great and then fade. It's the nature of MMA and these discussions would go a lot more smoothly if people actually understood that. Look at Jon Jones? Already fading. And there are other examples I'm too braindead to pull up.
 
sampuncher said:
He almost got stopped by Bob fucking Sapp.


They're two different fighters who faced very different competition in a very different era.

I don't think you can compare the two at all. Neither are the GOAT of the HW.
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Bob Sapp was actually very dangerous at the time. Nothing like what he later became when he just showed up for a paycheck to lose.
 
I've never once seen anyone argue Barnett won both of their fights, only vice versa. That alone shows you're reaching.
 
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