Is Foreman a better boxer than Ali since he destroyed fighters Ali had wars with (and lost to)

[defjaam]

He didn't. Patterson was already beaten before the bell against Liston. He really tried against Ali, however, and got his head boxed off like an amateur. Ali beat him about as badly as someone can without having a real punch like Foreman, Liston, etc.

spacetime, the type of guy that argues with you and doesn't know what he even argues about.
Also happens to be the guy that orders at the drive-in and then eats the food inside.

 

[defjaam]

Ali was known to embellish a lot of things, i would take everything he said with a giant pinch of salt, he liked to tell tales to make him look better, and didnt care who he hurt in the process

Yea, he often made up stuff just to get attention.

 

[treelo]

Yea, he often made up stuff just to get attention.

LOL

 

[spacetime]

spacetime, the type of guy that argues with you and doesn't know what he even argues about.
Also happens to be the guy that orders at the drive-in and then eats the food inside.

Muhammed Ali almost never knocked a guy out in the first or second round. You cannot apply the same standard to his fights as that of a big puncher.

What you can compare his level of dominance, and he absolutely dominated Patterson.

 

[burningspear]

Ali has an * to his fights, in a similar way to Tyson for their post hiatus fights. Both were superior before imo.

 

[ScarfaceMasdival]

Not even close

 

[spacetime]

Not even close

So you are telling me that despite his easy early rounds KO's over Alis nemesisis, that you still would have bet on Ali to outbox and KO Foreman?

 

[spacetime]

Ali has an * to his fights, in a similar way to Tyson for their post hiatus fights. Both were superior before imo.

Frazier had beaten Ali when Foreman destroyed him

 

[spacetime]

Better boxer or better fighter?

Both. His jab was far superior.

 

[burningspear]

Frazier had beaten Ali when Foreman destroyed him

Yeah, an Ali returning from his ban.

 

[SandaKicker]

I agree with this breakdown that for Ali, landing his right hand on Foreman was;



"the easiest thing in the world"

Ali pretty much annihilated Foreman in my opinion, smashed him with the right hand for two rounds then taunted and laughed at him whilst he became berserk and deranged before finishing the job sending him crushed to the canvas like a faulty carthorse.

I think in terms of his comeback Ali really peaked for that fight, plus styles make fights.

 

[Ancient Warrior]

Both. His jab was far superior.

I don’t agree.

His jab only seemed better shot for shot because it was like getting hit with a telephone pole.

 

[deucesarewild]

Foreman, if you factor in his late 80's and 90's revival is deifinitely a better "boxer" than he is given credit for. Punchers and aggressive fighters who have boxing ability are usually criminally undervalued as mere brutes because most people see things in a linear, or cause-and-effect manner. Foreman elevates himself above these stereotypes.

Still, Ali has four Olymlic gold medalists among his list of scalps (including Foreman's), and he did end up beating the guys that beat him and that Foreman also demolished. Ali also had names from the sixties when they were good in the sixties (Liston, Patterson though he was tapering off, Chuvalo).

Ali's brash, unapologetic civil rights stance, given its time during the socially-charged 1960's, will always be conflated with his boxing greatness, and this unduly inflates his boxing legacy. Let it be known that I believe Ali to be the better boxer because of his consistency over time, willingness to figt anyone (Foreman picked a bit in the 90's), and his skill in rematches (3 of 5 losses avenged), his number of quality names on his resume. As a sidebar, yes, I consider fighters like Ken Norton as an A level boxer - in many other eras he would have been a clear champ, and if he won that split against Holmes we suddenly look at him and Holmes very differently. It is funny how much power rests in one man or woman's scorecard, no? Or, even Ali's split wins against Norton.

I like this thread because it made me reevaluate, but I still land on the same answer.

 

[spacetime]

I don’t agree.

His jab only seemed better shot for shot because it was like getting hit with a telephone pole.

Ali's jab may be the most overrated shot in our sport. Height for height it was nothing. But since he had a massive reach advantage over everybody he fought, it seemed as this was an unstoppable force

 

[spacetime]

Ken Norton as an A level boxer - in many other eras he would have been a clear champ, and if he won that split against Holmes we suddenly look at him and Holmes very differently. It is funny how much power rests in one man or woman's scorecard, no? Or, even Ali's split wins against Norton.

Norton couldn't even beat Shavers.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

I don't think that Ali would have been able to repeat the victory over Foreman had there been a rematch though. And Angelo Dundee told me as much back in 1985 when we had a conversation about the Foreman fight.
He said that Ali fought the perfect fight under the perfect set of circumstances that October night in 1974 & that repeating it would have been extremely difficult for him. And that it would have been impossible for him after his third fight with Frazier because of how much that fight took out of Ali. He was a shell of his former self afterward. His legs were pretty much shot & the snap on his punches was gone. Dundee said he couldn't have kept Foreman honest in a rematch & that George would have likely walked right through him. Which is why they never intended to fight him again. He said that Foreman's upset loss to Jimmy Young was the only thing that kept Ali in the game post-1976. He had fully intended on retiring after the Norton rubber match but when Foreman lost to Young & subsequently retired for a decade that Ali decided to keep going. Thus the hastily arranged title defense vs the undeserving Alfredo Evangelista in May of '77.

 

[spacetime]

I don't think that Ali would have been able to repeat the victory over Foreman had there been a rematch though. And Angelo Dundee told me as much back in 1985 when we had a conversation about the Foreman fight.
He said that Ali fought the perfect fight under the perfect set of circumstances that October night in 1974 & that repeating it would have been extremely difficult for him. And that it would have been impossible for him after his third fight with Frazier because of how much that fight took out of Ali. He was a shell of his former self afterward. His legs were pretty much shot & the snap on his punches was gone. Dundee said he couldn't have kept Foreman honest in a rematch & that George would have likely walked right through him. Which is why they never intended to fight him again. He said that Foreman's upset loss to Jimmy Young was the only thing that kept Ali in the game post-1976. He had fully intended on retiring after the Norton rubber match but when Foreman lost to Young & subsequently retired for a decade that Ali decided to keep going. Thus the hastily arranged title defense vs the undeserving Alfredo Evangelista in May of '77.

Assuming Foreman learned his lesson and bides his time. But yeah it would have been interesting. Foreman barely threw a jab the hole fight, his best punch. That said, Ali completely outstruck him. Foreman did struggle with that hand speed and could probably not slugg Ali away, which is a problem since Foreman was a slugger of sorts

 

[Cylence]

Norton couldn't even beat Shavers.

Norton was a strange case. If you put him in there with an all time great slick boxer like Ali or Holmes, he would give them hell every second of the way. But, put him in there with a murderous puncher like Foreman or Shavers, and he got splattered all over the canvas.

 

[spacetime]

Norton was a strange case. If you put him in there with an all time great slick boxer like Ali or Holmes, he would give them hell every second of the way. But, put him in there with a murderous puncher like Foreman or Shavers, and he got splattered all over the canvas.

Shavers wasn't even a good finisher and he still beat him.

 

[burningspear]

Shavers wasn't even a good finisher and he still beat him.