Is kickboxing a style?

[sweetviolenturg]

Feel like I read a synopsis from Anne Rice.

naturally J/K

I am a wordy bastard, aren't I?

 

[Dexter]

Depends where you are. In the UK all kickboxing schools have a belt system. Muay Thai can have the arm band system so wont have belts, here it's all to do with how it's regulated.

And the reasonong behind it? How are the ranks achieved? By number of offficial bouts?

 

[exclamatio]

And the reasonong behind it? How are the ranks achieved? By number of offficial bouts?

The reasoning is quality control. When Japanese martial arts arts first came to England it didn't take long for people to claim to have been taught by some master in Japan. So eventually for someone to be allowed to teach professionally they had to have their grade accredited by an organisation that is recognised by the government. This is basically still the same system we have now, except there are many organisations that are responsible for many styles.

Grading from beginner through to your final non instructor level grade is all done in house. So whichever gym / dojo you train at is responsible for training you and grading you until you're ready to grade for your first black belt. This must be done with a senior member present from the organisation that your gym belongs to. Depending on the gym, and the organisation they will have varying levels of input on the lower grades. Usually depends how big the org is, how often the gym holds gradings, and the level of instruction at the gym, ie are they trusted to take people from white to final grading before black without any hand holding.

You don't need any official bouts to grade in the UK. But local gyms may have their own in house policy. At our gym you didn't have to compete as a student, but you needed some experience to coach.

So in our gym it worked like this;
New member joins and pays monthly fees to train in our classes.
New member starts at white belt and every month we hold gradings for anyone that's ready to have an official test day. To grade at beginner levels you need to have passed 3 in class tests (basically once a month your coach will make sure you're on target and give you specific things to work on for any weaknesses etc), then you can come to the official grading where you demonstrate your techniques in shadow boxing, pad work, bag work, and sparring after the beginner grades.
Our belt order is: White, Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, 2nd Blue, Purple, 1st Brown, 2nd Brown, 3rd Brown, Black.
White - Brown all done in house.
Black belts the head of Shorai, Joe Tierney, would come and test people in a similar way to the coloured belts but much harsher.
For a student it's just a target to aim for and motivation to be ready for test day.
If you want to teach now you have a black belt, you can now buy insurance.
If you don't hold a teaching grade in your style, and current membership to your organisation, you can't buy insurance to teach it. Public liability and professional indemnity.

It's not perfect and there are many ways around it, I have many criticisms of it myself, but it's just how it is. One guy got a black belt with us, left and joined another organisation, gave himself a 5th degree black belt, and just did his own thing.

In theory it's to keep standards up, etc. If someone gets caught commiting a crime, touching their students etc, they can't just move to another state and setup shop like in the USA because they need to be attached to an organisation, and it's their job to not allow membership to these people. They should technically be done forever with coaching.

 

[Dexter]

The reasoning is quality control. When Japanese martial arts arts first came to England it didn't take long for people to claim to have been taught by some master in Japan. So eventually for someone to be allowed to teach professionally they had to have their grade accredited by an organisation that is recognised by the government. This is basically still the same system we have now, except there are many organisations that are responsible for many styles.

Grading from beginner through to your final non instructor level grade is all done in house. So whichever gym / dojo you train at is responsible for training you and grading you until you're ready to grade for your first black belt. This must be done with a senior member present from the organisation that your gym belongs to. Depending on the gym, and the organisation they will have varying levels of input on the lower grades. Usually depends how big the org is, how often the gym holds gradings, and the level of instruction at the gym, ie are they trusted to take people from white to final grading before black without any hand holding.

You don't need any official bouts to grade in the UK. But local gyms may have their own in house policy. At our gym you didn't have to compete as a student, but you needed some experience to coach.

So in our gym it worked like this;
New member joins and pays monthly fees to train in our classes.
New member starts at white belt and every month we hold gradings for anyone that's ready to have an official test day. To grade at beginner levels you need to have passed 3 in class tests (basically once a month your coach will make sure you're on target and give you specific things to work on for any weaknesses etc), then you can come to the official grading where you demonstrate your techniques in shadow boxing, pad work, bag work, and sparring after the beginner grades.
Our belt order is: White, Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, 2nd Blue, Purple, 1st Brown, 2nd Brown, 3rd Brown, Black.
White - Brown all done in house.
Black belts the head of Shorai, Joe Tierney, would come and test people in a similar way to the coloured belts but much harsher.
For a student it's just a target to aim for and motivation to be ready for test day.
If you want to teach now you have a black belt, you can now buy insurance.
If you don't hold a teaching grade in your style, and current membership to your organisation, you can't buy insurance to teach it. Public liability and professional indemnity.

It's not perfect and there are many ways around it, I have many criticisms of it myself, but it's just how it is. One guy got a black belt with us, left and joined another organisation, gave himself a 5th degree black belt, and just did his own thing.

In theory it's to keep standards up, etc. If someone gets caught commiting a crime, touching their students etc, they can't just move to another state and setup shop like in the USA because they need to be attached to an organisation, and it's their job to not allow membership to these people. They should technically be done forever with coaching.

Thanks for the detailed answer.
In Russia, combat sports (and all sports as a whole) students have a grading systems based on their performance in competitions, so you have zero chances to progress without competing. And all gradings, starting from beginers lvl, are done by Federations officials, so you can't cheat the system.

 

[exclamatio]

Thanks for the detailed answer.
In Russia, combat sports (and all sports as a whole) students have a grading systems based on their performance in competitions, so you have zero chances to progress without competing. And all gradings, starting from beginers lvl, are done by Federations officials, so you can't cheat the system.

No problem!
That's really cool, I didn't know that about Russian combat sports! Now that's something I really like the idea of.
I've always been under the impression that Russian combat sports have more of a sports science approach to training and competition too. Over here it's still catching up with that, there's still a lot of inneficient training and bro science.

 

[Dexter]

No problem!
That's really cool, I didn't know that about Russian combat sports! Now that's something I really like the idea of.
I've always been under the impression that Russian combat sports have more of a sports science approach to training and competition too. Over here it's still catching up with that, there's still a lot of inneficient training and bro science.

Not Russian, Soviet . All Russia sport achievements stood on the shoulders of its predecessor. Yep, they did put insane amounts of money in sport science after 60s as it was seen as prestigious to win Olympics, World, etc.

 

[Hotora86]

Kickboxing is the natural evolution of Karate which none of the "traditional" Karate guys accepted.

 

[Inquisitus]

Kickboxing is the natural evolution of Karate which none of the "traditional" Karate guys accepted.

Ironically like how traditional Japanese karate was an inevitable evolution of Okinawan karate brought to a wide audience of college age males in a militaristic society. They're just going to want to try it for real on each other. Just goes to show, it's the artist and not the art.

 

[JohnPJones]

Kickboxing is the natural evolution of Karate which none of the "traditional" Karate guys accepted.

Not sure how you think gutting most of the techniques in karate makes it the natural evolution of karate.
MT would be a more natural evolution.

 

[Little Mac]

I would think yes. I mean look at what the Dutch did with the striking styles they learned. Look at how Japan evolved the Karate they knew. Quite a few Koreans who had TKD backgrounds starting adding Dutch style Muay Thai and Boxing into their style.

I would say yes.

 

[j123]

...so you have zero chances to progress without competing

If you don't compete you go to gulag
If you lose you go to gulag

Sergei learns how to kick after 30min
Russia: he is ready for fight

And all gradings, starting from beginers lvl, are done by Federations officials, so you can't cheat the system.

How much can $500 usd get?

 

[Inquisitus]

Not sure how you think gutting most of the techniques in karate makes it the natural evolution of karate.
MT would be a more natural evolution.

Except he's factually correct, kickboxing was historically an outgrowth of contact karate that came from point fighting karate, particularly in US. Point fighting karate evolved out of University sparring rules from pre and post war Japan. Japanese karate was transformed from a grappling heavy Okinawan art to strikes only. Japan had native jujustsu/judo for the grappling and wanted something like western boxing. MT was already a sport by the time this happened. MT came back to Japanese kickboxing after the KK guys went to Thailand in the 60's. The Dutch got their KB from KK and it developed further by adopting MT a la the Japanese. MT is a fight sport while Okinawan karate was mostly about self defense. Parallel development of techniques but totally different intents.

 

[JohnPJones]

Except he's factually correct, kickboxing was historically an outgrowth of contact karate that came from point fighting karate, particularly in US. Point fighting karate evolved out of University sparring rules from pre and post war Japan. Japanese karate was transformed from a grappling heavy Okinawan art to strikes only. Japan had native jujustsu/judo for the grappling and wanted something like western boxing. MT was already a sport by the time this happened. MT came back to Japanese kickboxing after the KK guys went to Thailand in the 60's. The Dutch got their KB from KK and it developed further by adopting MT a la the Japanese. MT is a fight sport while Okinawan karate was mostly about self defense. Parallel development of techniques but totally different intents.

Point fighting and kickboxing came about at nearly the same time, and certainly not far enough apart to claim KB evolved from point fighting. Yamaguchi popularized 'semi contact kickboxing' in the mid50s and point fighting was created in the 60s
https://www.google.com/amp/s/progressivepft.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/origin-of-point-fighting/amp/

In fact kickboxing came from karate adopting Muay Thai rules and then removing techniques and making the rules more strict.
https://www.liveabout.com/history-and-style-guide-kickboxing-2308271

 

[Cole train]

KB is like MT but no one is having any fun.

Honestly scoring is better in kickboxing in my opinion

I dont like that they give such emphasis to "mt techniques"

Seen guy lose a round even if he was beating guy up with punches but because other guy managed to knee or elbow 2 times he gets the round

 

[Woldog]

Honestly scoring is better in kickboxing in my opinion

The kicking is better in Muay Thai in my opinion.

 

[Cole train]

The kicking is better in Muay Thai in my opinion.

Corruption as well

More straightforward

 

[Hotora86]

Not sure how you think gutting most of the techniques in karate makes it the natural evolution of karate.
MT would be a more natural evolution.

I was a bit contrarian for the sake of it but I do think that as fighting (in the developed world) generally moved from "the streets" to the rings and cages it was quite natural for kickboxing to emerge from Karate.

 

[Dexter]

If you don't compete you go to gulag
If you lose you go to gulag

Sergei learns how to kick after 30min
Russia: he is ready for fight


How much can $500 usd get?

Your MoS candidate papers are ready, sir.

 

[Inquisitus]

Point fighting and kickboxing came about at nearly the same time, and certainly not far enough apart to claim KB evolved from point fighting. Yamaguchi popularized 'semi contact kickboxing' in the mid50s and point fighting was created in the 60s
https://www.google.com/amp/s/progressivepft.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/origin-of-point-fighting/amp/

JKA first all japan tourney was in 57 https://www.jka.or.jp/en/about-jka/history/. Yamaguchi apparently created jiyu kumite in 34, so he started the whole craze in the Japanese universities.

In fact kickboxing came from karate adopting Muay Thai rules and then removing techniques and making the rules more strict.
https://www.liveabout.com/history-and-style-guide-kickboxing-2308271

This is how kickboxing came to be in Japan and eventually Dutch KB. The below details the US/Canada stream of above waist kickfighting; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing#Full_contact. I mean you can't have Benny the Jet vs MT and Roufus vs MT without having competing rulesets.

KB evolved concurrently in the different countries because people just have to test their new skills/powers for real. But MT can't have been the natural progenitor for all kick fighting rules. It was relatively unknown until Karate challenged them and got beaten in the mid-60s. Unless you believe Jesse Enkamp and his hypothesis that Okinawan karate had roots in Siamese martial arts.

 

[JohnPJones]

JKA first all japan tourney was in 57 https://www.jka.or.jp/en/about-jka/history/. Yamaguchi apparently created jiyu kumite in 34, so he started the whole craze in the Japanese universities.




This is how kickboxing came to be in Japan and eventually Dutch KB. The below details the US/Canada stream of above waist kickfighting; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing#Full_contact. I mean you can't have Benny the Jet vs MT and Roufus vs MT without having competing rulesets.

KB evolved concurrently in the different countries because people just have to test their new skills/powers for real. But MT can't have been the natural progenitor for all kick fighting rules. It was relatively unknown until Karate challenged them and got beaten in the mid-60s. Unless you believe Jesse Enkamp and his hypothesis that Okinawan karate had roots in Siamese martial arts.

Was that kyokushin vs Muay Thai fight mid60s? I could have sworn it was mid50's