Keenan Cornelius: "Rickson Gracie...tough purple belt"

[rmongler]

Doesn't the short ground limit of judo actually make going for subs in scrambles a much better choice then carefully setting them up?

Im not 100% on how long the rules as of today were the case 30 or 40 years ago in judo (now thinking about how 1980 was 40 years ago); i do know that sport sambo also has time limits of ground action, and going right into an attack is often advantageous.

Time limits for ground action were almost unheard-of in catch/submission wrestling competitions; rather, dominant control on the ground was often specifically the goal; the riding time rules in American Folkstyle wrestling is an inheritance from common rulesets of that era. In matches that were pin or submit only (usually exhibitions between two high level competitors; simpler rules like this were often easier for two parties to agree too, since shooters often competed under a variety of different rulesets), it was not outside the realm of possibility for contests between two evenly matched competitors to go on for an hour or more.

 

[yetanother]

Actually no. The big innovations from the early days are:

The importance of the guard. No other grappling style recognized this. Judo had a number of guard techniques including a few sweeps, the triangle and the kimura from guard (called Ude-Garami in judo), but they never recognized how important and strong a position the guard was.

Position before submission. In both catch and judo submissions were generally pursued on the fly; it wasn't until early BJJ that securing position before going on to submission became important. In judo position was considered very important, but once you had it you held it for a ground hold instead of going on for a submission.

The idea of guard passing in general. In judo the general procedure was just to get back on your feet if you were in someone's guard, in catch wrestling things like the can-opener. The idea to make skillful guard passes are the innovation of early BJJ.

Much of early BJJ was development of these concepts, and how to move and control properly. These things are now so taken for granted in BJJ that people don't realize they were the result of experimentation and creativity. They're obvious now that (after centuries of grappling without them) early BJJ developed them.

My background is judo and wrestling, both of which I started in the 70's. When BJJ started becoming known it was these things that set it apart, not specific techniques which wouldn't have worked in the first place without the development of the concepts I mentioned.

Its the same thing with Kano. His big contribution was the recognition that its better to practice 'non-deadly' techniques under full competition than to drill and kata techniques too harmful to use in competition. The individual techniques he developed are secondary (and have long been surpassed in judo) to that one insight.

Those are the things introduced at the very beginning.

 

[yetanother]

I've never met the man, let alone seen one of his seminars.

The seminars are for free youtube (you can watch them to see it's all bullshit for yourself), I'm not such a gullible retard to actually pay a hefty sum for one.

 

[yetanother]

Im not 100% on how long the rules as of today were the case 30 or 40 years ago in judo (now thinking about how 1980 was 40 years ago); i do know that sport sambo also has time limits of ground action, and going right into an attack is often advantageous.

Time limits for ground action were almost unheard-of in catch/submission wrestling competitions; rather, dominant control on the ground was often specifically the goal; the riding time rules in American Folkstyle wrestling is an inheritance from common rulesets of that era. In matches that were pin or submit only (usually exhibitions between two high level competitors; simpler rules like this were often easier for two parties to agree too, since shooters often competed under a variety of different rulesets), it was not outside the realm of possibility for contests between two evenly matched competitors to go on for an hour or more.

I can imagine position over submission being the obvious tactic under such a rule set when both of the contestants between too even moderately trained contestants.

 

[JSN]

Actually no. The big innovations from the early days are:

The importance of the guard. No other grappling style recognized this. Judo had a number of guard techniques including a few sweeps, the triangle and the kimura from guard (called Ude-Garami in judo), but they never recognized how important and strong a position the guard was.

Position before submission. In both catch and judo submissions were generally pursued on the fly; it wasn't until early BJJ that securing position before going on to submission became important. In judo position was considered very important, but once you had it you held it for a ground hold instead of going on for a submission.

The idea of guard passing in general. In judo the general procedure was just to get back on your feet if you were in someone's guard, in catch wrestling things like the can-opener. The idea to make skillful guard passes are the innovation of early BJJ.

Much of early BJJ was development of these concepts, and how to move and control properly. These things are now so taken for granted in BJJ that people don't realize they were the result of experimentation and creativity. They're obvious now that (after centuries of grappling without them) early BJJ developed them.

My background is judo and wrestling, both of which I started in the 70's. When BJJ started becoming known it was these things that set it apart, not specific techniques which wouldn't have worked in the first place without the development of the concepts I mentioned.

Its the same thing with Kano. His big contribution was the recognition that its better to practice 'non-deadly' techniques under full competition than to drill and kata techniques too harmful to use in competition. The individual techniques he developed are secondary (and have long been surpassed in judo) to that one insight.

The way Renzo's book is written, submission grappling in PJ's was probably more developed in Japan in Kano's time than it was in Brazil until very recently. But had become a bit forgotten due to Judo becoming more and more popular.

I think this makes sense too when you consider Kimura wiping the floor with Helio Gracie around 1950. I don't even know if Kimura was even known for his submissions at the time as he was a judoka.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

This is graciegang marketing.

Maybe someone else in the BJJ world came up with it, but I was a judoka in the 70's and it wasn't a judo concept. In judo once you had position you held it without going for a sub -- 30 seconds of ground hold back then were enough for a win, why risk that by moving on for a submission. So if not the Gracies, then someone else in the early BJJ'ers came up with it. My understanding is that the Gracies started BJJ, so it seems reasonable to believe they started it.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

The way Renzo's book is written, submission grappling in PJ's was probably more developed in Japan in Kano's time than it was in Brazil until very recently. But had become a bit forgotten due to Judo becoming more and more popular.

I think this makes sense too when you consider Kimura wiping the floor with Helio Gracie around 1950. I don't even know if Kimura was even known for his submissions at the time as he was a judoka.

He wasn't, he was primarily known for his throws. Judo ground work (ne-waza) was much betting before the 80's (when judo rules changed dramatically) than it is today. However, judo ground work has a very different emphasis -- generally ground holds (osae waza) is emphasized more than submissions because they're easier to obtain. Moreover in judo there's no penalty (or even discouragement) for regaining your feet when on the ground -- escaping to your feet isn't seen as stalling but as getting back to the normal position (on your feet). So even advanced judo ground work is quite different than BJJ groundwork.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Doesn't the short ground limit of judo actually make going for subs in scrambles a much better choice then carefully setting them up?

That is correct. The one exception is when your opponent is turtled, and judo has a number of very careful and well drilled, step by step tactics for that.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Im not 100% on how long the rules as of today were the case 30 or 40 years ago in judo (now thinking about how 1980 was 40 years ago); i do know that sport sambo also has time limits of ground action, and going right into an attack is often advantageous.

Time limits for ground action were almost unheard-of in catch/submission wrestling competitions; rather, dominant control on the ground was often specifically the goal; the riding time rules in American Folkstyle wrestling is an inheritance from common rulesets of that era. In matches that were pin or submit only (usually exhibitions between two high level competitors; simpler rules like this were often easier for two parties to agree too, since shooters often competed under a variety of different rulesets), it was not outside the realm of possibility for contests between two evenly matched competitors to go on for an hour or more.

Until the early 80's there were no timelimits (other than match limits) on ground work in judo. Neil Adams for instance won his world championship in 1981 almost completely on the ground. However escaping to your feet was almost much more of an option in judo than in BJJ (even back then your feet was considered the normal position, so what would be called stalling on the ground in BJJ was completely acceptable in judo. And if no progress was made in 30 seconds (today its about 5-10 seconds) then you'd be stood up. Which gave judo groundwork a very different feel than BJJ. It also meant that once you had position you didn't risk it by going for a submission, you just held on for the osae-komi win.

 

[JSN]

He wasn't, he was primarily known for his throws. Judo ground work (ne-waza) was much betting before the 80's (when judo rules changed dramatically) than it is today. However, judo ground work has a very different emphasis -- generally ground holds (osae waza) is emphasized more than submissions because they're easier to obtain. Moreover in judo there's no penalty (or even discouragement) for regaining your feet when on the ground -- escaping to your feet isn't seen as stalling but as getting back to the normal position (on your feet). So even advanced judo ground work is quite different than BJJ groundwork.

that said, there were jujitsu schools very advanced in submissions back in the day. There was one school that dominated Kano's by butt scooting and submitting everyone ~1900.

 

[yetanother]

That is correct. The one exception is when your opponent is turtled, and judo has a number of very careful and well drilled, step by step tactics for that.

I don't doubt they have it well drilled and prepared, but patiently taking the back and attacking from there doesn't seem to be a high level tactic under that rule set.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I don't doubt they have it well drilled and prepared, but patiently taking the back and attacking from there doesn't seem to be a high level tactic under that rule set.

You're right that patiently attacking isn't a useful tactic. There set sequences of typically around five steps and they're drilled until they can be done in five to ten seconds against fully resisting opponents (and of course, escapes are also drilled by high level competitors).

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

that said, there were jujitsu schools very advanced in submissions back in the day. There was one school that dominated Kano's by butt scooting and submitting everyone ~1900.

Fusen-Ryu according to legend, tho apparently there's no more documentation that it ever happened than there is documentation that the fabled competition between the major ju jitsu schools won by judo. Its quite possible that both judo's famous wins and losses against various ju jitsu schools are exaggerated accounts of a few individuals cross training.

However, Kano was very open about stealing techniques from wherever he could find them (including western wrestling). His prime job was as an education prof in a university, and he had the normal academic response to something that worked -- incorporate it into your own work. Its a shame the IJF hasn't followed his lead -- he incorporated things like double legs and the fireman's carry (morote gari and kata guruma) from western wrestling into core judo, whereas the IJF has banned them.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Those are the things introduced at the very beginning.

But developed over the following decades, or so I was told. For instance in the 90's when style vs style was a big thing, it was regularly claimed by BJJ people that BJJ had advanced greatly since the days when Kimura beat Helio so that match didn't mean anything. Wouldn't Rickson be one of the key figures in those advances, if they happened?

 

[mataleaos]

I don't even know if Kimura was even known for his submissions at the time as he was a judoka.

Yeah he wasn't. I did Judo before BJJ and Kimura was my favorite Judoka ever along with Okano.

Kimura was most famous for his osoto-gari. We would hear stories (maybe urban legends?) about training partners drawing straws for who had to be his uke that day, and other stories about him practicing osoto-gari on trees to condition the back of his leg for the reaping motion.

He did have a good ude-garami but I don't think it became something he was infamous for until after the Helio Gracie match and then the Gracies named the move in BJJ after Kimura because he used it in that match.

 

[mataleaos]

None of Rogers students are as successful as him using the basics against modern players in competition. Honestly much of Rogers success was just sheer talent, he’s a tall athletic guy with super long limbs, his build was just tailored for his advanced basics game. I don’t think his movements are as fluid and smooth as Buchecha who moves around like a middle weight on the mat.

One time I heard Gui Mendes say something like "There's a reason Roger wears that giant gi. He's already super tall and long and that large gi makes it even harder to move him around with grips."

Gui was NOT saying that Roger is not a demon when it comes to technique but he was saying that body type plays a bigger role than many like to think. Also Roger is clearly doing a lot of invisible jiu-jitsu that people aren't seen.

His game may appear to be very basic (closed guard sweeps, pass to mount, cross choke) but you make a great point. I've never seen anyone come close to replicating his game at a high level. I don't know if he still trains (and he used to post here) but Sean Roberts is one of the few people that made a lot of Roger Gracie stuff work for him. At purple, brown, and even early at black belt he would catch a lot of dudes with mounted cross chokes. And frankly that's not a common submission at after the mid early 00's at all outside of Roger.

I'd love to see Sean back in the game. He had a good mix of tricky stuff but also a crazy solid foundation of super old school stuff.

 

[Ryo]

Yeah he wasn't. I did Judo before BJJ and Kimura was my favorite Judoka ever along with Okano.

Kimura was most famous for his osoto-gari. We would hear stories (maybe urban legends?) about training partners drawing straws for who had to be his uke that day, and other stories about him practicing osoto-gari on trees to condition the back of his leg for the reaping motion.

He did have a good ude-garami but I don't think it became something he was infamous for until after the Helio Gracie match and then the Gracies named the move in BJJ after Kimura because he used it in that match.

Wrong... where do you guys pick this stuff up from? Not known for newaza? He is known as the greatest Kosen Judo guy. There's a great interview with Dr. Yuji Nimura, the senior Judo instructor at Nahoya University and a guy who's been training Kosen Judo for 60 plus years and is more qualified to speak on it than most people. He flat out states that Kimura was the greatest Kosen player with the greatest newaza. Kosen is a ruleset that focuses 80 percent or more on newaza. There's even pictures of Kimura floating around carrying the flag that says Tachiwaza is good but newaza is better....he was known for his newaza.

There are several videos on youtube form the 70s and 80s where you can see de la Riva used a ton in Kosen comp, as well as x guard.

You can see also see videos of intritace guard passing taught by Kanae Hirata, one of the old school Kosen guys.

Another thing that people seem to forget. Oswaldo Alves was very influential on modern BJJ. He was a student of Isao Okano and trained under him in Japan, then went back to Brazil. You can find interviews where he talks about the high level ground work from Okano, specifically side control and guard passing. He talks about how these positions werent well developed in BJJ before Alves brought them back from Japan in the 70s. This was a big factor in JJ moving to an higher level and becoming the modern JJ we know today.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

i'm certain the game has changed, although it may be just due to my teachers.

as a guy who trained in the early 2000s and then jumped in again last year.... i mean, closed guard.... sorry, im talking no gi, mma based Bjj..... closed guard is nearly gone.... x guard and other shit i had never heard of was there... i was so far behind. and im actually in better shape and stronger now than then. i was just lost

 

[JimmyFresno]

So funny, that I forgot to laugh.

Rickson played chess with his jiu jitsu, not checkers.

 

[nefti]

Actually no. The big innovations from the early days are:

The importance of the guard. No other grappling style recognized this. Judo had a number of guard techniques including a few sweeps, the triangle and the kimura from guard (called Ude-Garami in judo), but they never recognized how important and strong a position the guard was.

Position before submission. In both catch and judo submissions were generally pursued on the fly; it wasn't until early BJJ that securing position before going on to submission became important. In judo position was considered very important, but once you had it you held it for a ground hold instead of going on for a submission.

The idea of guard passing in general. In judo the general procedure was just to get back on your feet if you were in someone's guard, in catch wrestling things like the can-opener. The idea to make skillful guard passes are the innovation of early BJJ.

Much of early BJJ was development of these concepts, and how to move and control properly. These things are now so taken for granted in BJJ that people don't realize they were the result of experimentation and creativity. They're obvious now that (after centuries of grappling without them) early BJJ developed them.

My background is judo and wrestling, both of which I started in the 70's. When BJJ started becoming known it was these things that set it apart, not specific techniques which wouldn't have worked in the first place without the development of the concepts I mentioned.

Its the same thing with Kano. His big contribution was the recognition that its better to practice 'non-deadly' techniques under full competition than to drill and kata techniques too harmful to use in competition. The individual techniques he developed are secondary (and have long been surpassed in judo) to that one insight.

The guard was already established in bjj. We are talking about bjj development.