Economy Men only make up 40% of college students. Where is the outcry?

[Bald1]

Those countries are as egalitarian when it comes to gender in their laws and social norms as it gets, what more are we supposed to do? Scrub the entire concept of gender from our society in the hopes that eventually half of engineers will be women and half of nurses will be men? For what purpose? If people are free to choose and end up leaning into traditional gender roles what is the issue?

All you can do is give people every opportunity to shape their lives as they will and live with the outcome. To then question the outcome as anything other than natural reeks of preconceptions. There's a reason I mentioned Scandi countries as you said. If they don't have equal opportunities we can derive results from I don't know if we can come to any conclusions at all.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Those countries are as egalitarian when it comes to gender in their laws and social norms as it gets, what more are we supposed to do? Scrub the entire concept of gender from our society in the hopes that eventually half of engineers will be women and half of nurses will be men? For what purpose? If people are free to choose and end up leaning into traditional gender roles what is the issue?

No issue it's just a pointless study imho.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No issue it's just a pointless study imho.

Uh no its not pointless, its quite telling that people in Scandinavian countries lean into gender roles when it comes to their selection of careers more than places like India which have absolutely crazy traditional gender norms. But of course progressives will never second guess their social engineering.

 

[Bald1]

No issue it's just a pointless study imho.

It's pointless to affirm the fact that women and men evolved in different ways to meet our needs as a species? Bad take dude.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Uh no its not pointless, its quite telling that people in Scandinavian countries lean into gender roles when it comes to their selection of careers more than places like India which have absolutely crazy traditional gender norms. But of course progressives will never second guess their social engineering.

Traditional roles are still traditional roles though, as things become more and more socially normal over time then we generally see things change. There's much more female interest in traditionally male roles like engineering here in the UK than there was ten years ago, it's just taken time to manifest itself.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Traditional roles are still traditional roles though, as things become more and more socially normal over time then we generally see things change. There's much more female interest in traditionally male roles like engineering here in the UK than there was ten years ago, it's just taken time to manifest itself.

The point you're missing is that it this didn't happen in Scandinavia despite how egalitarian they are in their laws and norms around gender and in fact the opposite happened. But like I said, something petty as real world data won't get in the way of progressive social engineering.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

It's pointless to affirm the fact that women and men evolved in different ways to meet our needs as a species? Bad take dude.

Things chance over time, if you look at these stats Useful Statistics | Women's Engineering Society (wes.org.uk) you can see that over time the number of women in engineering roles for example is slowly but surely creeping up. I think as it becomes more societally normal for women to go into these kind of roles the numbers increase. I don't think it's completely that women don't want to do these jobs, I also think there's concerns about entering traditionally male dominated environments.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

The point you're missing is that it this didn't happen in Scandinavia despite how egalitarian they are in their laws and norms around gender and in fact the opposite happened. But like I said, something petty as real world data won't get in the way of progressive social engineering.

If you look at the UK data then the number of women in male dominated fields is increasing. It's also anecdotal, but I work in a job centre and I do notice a definite difference in the amount of young women saying they want to work in traditionally male fields than I did when I started 10 years ago.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Things chance over time, if you look at these stats Useful Statistics | Women's Engineering Society (wes.org.uk) you can see that over time the number of women in engineering roles for example is slowly but surely creeping up. I think as it becomes more societally normal for women to go into these kind of roles the numbers increase. I don't think it's completely that women don't want to do these jobs, I also think there's concerns about entering traditionally male dominated environments.

So what's the end goal? For every occupation to breakdown 50/50 in terms of the gender make up? Or just the lucrative ones like engineering and CS but not the lower end fields dominated by men like trash collector?

 

[Islam Imamate]

If you look at the UK data then the number of women in male dominated fields is increasing. It's also anecdotal, but I work in a job centre and I do notice a definite difference in the amount of young women saying they want to work in traditionally male fields than I did when I started 10 years ago.

Only 14% of engineers are women and despite all the time, money, and energy invested in social engineering I would bet the number plateaus well before 50%.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

So what's the end goal? For every occupation to breakdown 50/50 in terms of the gender make up? Or just the lucrative ones like engineering and CS but not the lower end fields dominated by men like trash collector?

All I'm saying is that as things become more normalised and traditionally male dominated fields become something women consider as children then women will be more likely to go into these fields. I'm not suggesting that's a good or a bad thing.

 

[Bald1]

Things chance over time, if you look at these stats Useful Statistics | Women's Engineering Society (wes.org.uk) you can see that over time the number of women in engineering roles for example is slowly but surely creeping up. I think as it becomes more societally normal for women to go into these kind of roles the numbers increase. I don't think it's completely that women don't want to do these jobs, I also think there's concerns about entering traditionally male dominated environments.

But that's not my point.

To expect absolute equal representation is to have expectations that clearly goes against human nature. I'm in the trades and our government was running ads promoting women in the trades to the point of lowering their tuition fees and giving them special grants. The end result? No difference. I'm a middle aged dude with middle aged friends in accredited trades. We've all had women apprentices and give no fucks about gender as long as they can do the job. The claim that women aren't welcome in the trades is rapidly fading into myth. I was literally working on a bathroom reno yesterday for a red seal (interprovincial ticket) carpenter. A 46 year old woman. An oddity to be sure, but not due to having hurdles in the way.

Guess what? Most women don't want to bust ass on a construction site. Ain't that something?

 

[Islam Imamate]

All I'm saying is that as things become more normalised and traditionally male dominated fields become something women consider as children then women will be more likely to go into these fields. I'm not suggesting that's a good or a bad thing.

And I am telling you that is what happened in Scandinavia and the result the progressive social engineers were looking for didn't pan out.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Only 14% of engineers are women and despite all the time, money, and energy invested in social engineering I would bet the number plateaus well before 50%.

I can't find the stat I read a while ago, but the telling one for me (if I could find it lol) was that there was a big difference in the amount of girls aged 11-14 who would consider a career in engineering over a 5 year period. That to me was a more telling stat. I think we'll see where we're really at with it in about 10 years time here.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

But that's not my point.

To expect absolute equal representation is to have expectations that clearly goes against human nature. I'm in the trades and our government was running ads promoting women in the trades to the point of lowering their tuition fees and giving them special grants. The end result? No difference. I'm a middle aged dude with middle aged friends in accredited trades. We've all had women apprentices and give no fucks about gender as long as they can do the job. The claim that women aren't welcome in the trades is rapidly fading into myth. I was literally working on a bathroom reno yesterday for a red seal (interprovincial ticket) carpenter. A 46 year old woman. An oddity to be sure, but not due to having hurdles in the way.

Guess what? Most women don't want to bust ass on a construction site. Ain't that something?

I agree with what you're saying to a large extent, but I also think that at present we're looking at it from current adults who for the most part have grown up in a world where these are male dominated fields. If you could hypothetically remove that, then I think the figures would look a lot different. We're all socially engineered and the social engineering around that is natural and goes back hundreds of years. However I think that for roles where the physical side of the role isn't so much of an issue anymore, if the roles were less male dominated then you'd see more women choosing to go into the fields if they grew up with a truly clear and open mind on it.

So I don't think there'd be a massive uptake in women wanting to be labourers, but I can't see a reason why other male dominated fields like engineering, IT etc wouldn't attract more women in that scenario.

 

[Bald1]

I agree with what you're saying to a large extent, but I also think that at present we're looking at it from current adults who for the most part have grown up in a world where these are male dominated fields. If you could hypothetically remove that, then I think the figures would look a lot different. We're all socially engineered and the social engineering around that is natural and goes back hundreds of years. However I think that for roles where the physical side of the role isn't so much of an issue anymore, if the roles were less male dominated then you'd see more women choosing to go into the fields if they grew up with a truly clear and open mind on it.

So I don't think there'd be a massive uptake in women wanting to be labourers, but I can't see a reason why other male dominated fields like engineering, IT etc wouldn't attract more women in that scenario.

Waitaminute! I think you just said I wasn't an adult! Yeah, I can be an ass at times, but I'm well into my 40s. Besides that, you seem to be equating the trades with labourers. No labourer is charging out a quarter of what I do nor can they sniff my jockstrap on site.

That bit of silliness based in facts aside, so we're just going to pick and choose which career paths should see equal representation? That doesn't sound like equality to me at all. That sounds like privilege.

 

[Poatan Power]

Someone has to fight the wars, work physical labor jobs, go to prison and commit suicide. I'm surprised it's as high as 40%.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Waitaminute! I think you just said I wasn't an adult! Yeah, I can be an ass at times, but I'm well into my 40s. Besides that, you seem to be equating the trades with labourers. No labourer is charging out a quarter of what I do nor can they sniff my jockstrap on site.

That bit of silliness based in facts aside, so we're just going to pick and choose which career paths should see equal representation? That doesn't sound like equality to me at all. That sounds like privilege.

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against equality. All I'm saying is that any stats you look at with regards to roles chosen by either sex will only be representative of the people of that generation and kids who grow up seeing the world in a different way will be likely to choose differently.

 

[Bald1]

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against equality. All I'm saying is that any stats you look at with regards to roles chosen by either sex will only be representative of the people of that generation and kids who grow up seeing the world in a different way will be likely to choose differently.

I think equity would be a better fit for the last word in your first sentence. That aside, I'm all for equality of opportunity. But to expect to see equality in outcome repulses me. There's just too many variables to account for in our species seeing as we're walking talking variables to expect to see equal representation.

I'm not having a go at you here, just think your expectations go against how we as a species ended up where we're at today. Sure there will be moves along all sorts of vectors, but given what we see in the most egalitarian societies ever, we do see a trend in people falling into traditional gender roles given every opportunity to choose otherwise.

Agree to disagree here.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I think equity would be a better fit for the last word in your first sentence. That aside, I'm all for equality of opportunity. But to expect to see equality in outcome repulses me. There's just too many variables to account for in our species seeing as we're walking talking variables to expect to see equal representation.

I'm not having a go at you here, just think your expectations go against how we as a species ended up where we're at today. Sure there will be moves along all sorts of vectors, but given what we see in the most egalitarian societies ever, we do see a trend in people falling into traditional gender roles given every opportunity to choose otherwise.

Agree to disagree here.

I think you're mistaking my position a little bit. I don't really have an expectation as such. If a little girl wants to be a hairdresser then that's absolutely fine. My opinion is basically that any data we have on what careers women will want to go into is partly based on how that generation of women grew up and how they perceive the world. We have to consider lots of aspects including things like how girls see women perceived in entertainment etc growing up.

And I do think there's an issue of how male dominated a field is already. If I can use surveying as an example, that's quite a male dominated field but from a physical perspective there's no particular reason why it should be other than it always has been,