Social Minimum Wage now at $20 an hour in California

[nostradumbass]

No. It can and does work. You are repeating corporate propaganda. Lots and lots of people buy burgers and they can and should pay enough to support the laborers who make them... You just have a defacto FAITH in the system of exploitation. It's an anti human perspective. There is plenty for everyone if human beings are more important to you than profits or markets etc. less profit at the very top is a requirement for the lowest to have enough. Only a cruel psychopathic worldview doesn't want the least to have enough. No company should exist if it cannot provide a bare minimum to its workers.


Your worldview does require exploitation of others. It's an impoverished anti human worldview.

You got to start from first principles and first principles is every human being who works should have a basic dignity of life.

There isn't "plenty for everyone" though. The global GDP per capita is less than half of what these fast food workers are making, so if you want to share the wealth so everybody has the same, almost every working person in this country is going to have to take a huge pay cut, including the burger flippers, and in case you couldn't guess, the job just doesn't exist because nobody is going to open up a store or restaurant if the best you can possibly do is the same as the high school kid working at the register.

Global GDP is like $18k, so why don't you take everything you make beyond that and give it to people making less than that? Of course we know the answer is that you're only generous with other people's money.

 

[helltoupee]

I think anyone that makes minimum wage would already qualify for all sorts of benefits to ensure they survive. Raising minimum wage is just going to make companies raise prices, which in turn basically nullifies the increase anyway. It won't be long before these entry level jobs are automated anyway which will put them out of work regardless.

What must be understood is that all humans are built differently. Everyone has their weaknesses, strengths, and limitations.

Not everyone is cut out to work their way up the corporate ladder, go in to business for themself, move in to management, etc. That doesn't mean that those types of people cannot be of value to society, or don't work hard. Indeed, if you think min wage workers are of limited value, this entire country would shut down if all min wage workers went on strike tomorrow. No more gas, grocery stores, delivery drivers, bank tellers, Amazon, and on and on.

The problem is that most corporate structures are too top heavy, meaning they pay their workers an absolute minimum and treat them as expendable so the officers and stockholders can make millions upon millions a year. I would like to see our corporate structures to be more treated like the Japanese. In Japan, the lowliest of the lowly workers are made to feel important and a necessary cog in the machine which does wonders for worker productivity and employee retention. In periods where budget cuts are necessary, it's the highest paid officers who absorb the reductions, unlike in America where those that can least afford it (min wage workers) take the hit.

You are in essence arguing that min wage workers are of no or little value, and we have to keep it that way so Bob McCEO can afford 3 vacation homes, a yacht, and more money than anyone would ever need in a lifetime. How about we raise min wage for people who are contributing to society and if expenses are too much Bob McCEO gives up a reduction in an almost ridiculous compensation package? Bob McCEO's life is not going to change if he is making $200,000 a month rather than $400,000 a month. And again, if you don't think those min wage workers are worth being paid a wage they can barely subsist on, I'd like you to ask yourself how successful WalMart or Amazon would be if all their min wage workers walked off the job nationwide tomorrow. Those businesses would screech to a grinding halt.

 

[cheesus]

Did you forget how Australia absolutely lost its shit during covid? That alone opened my eyes to how crazy your government can get. I would never move to Australia on that display of draconian power alone.

I'm sorry but you just simply read too many anti US statistics. To say that the US is behind the majority of western countries and even second world countries is laughable. You're obviously anti US and that's fine but there's a reason why millions are trying to come here in droves and it's not because life here is mediocre.

Lost it's shit? Literally every country lost its shit as for Australia, the biggest issue was largerly a state one with it's excessive lockdowns. The U.S had far worse death rates, positive cases, it also had it's own lockdowns so don't pretend the U.S was some golden standard. It was it's own unique shit show.

It's not laughable it's factual, on average they're behind in healthcare, crime, standard of living, workers rights, public education, incarceration, recidivism etc.

I didn't say life in the U.S is mediocre, it can be a great place to live and for most with an education and/or skillset it is but it has a far lower over safety net than other developed nations so far more people are living pay cheque to pay cheque, unable to afford medical costs, living in poverty or homeless.

Millions of people don't flock to the U.S because it's the greatest country in the world, there's clear geographic and logistical reasoning for that. Besides, this isn't a unique problem to the U.S, every developed nation has it's own problems with illegal immigration, the U.S just has the biggest challenge policing it's border.

I'm not anti U.S at all. I've been there several times and I hope to return, it has many advantages over other countries. It is just factually accurate that the U.S on average has overall lower living standards than most first world nations. To objectively critisize a countries failures isn't to hate it.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I get the utopian aspect of it but I've already gone over this. You raise minimum wage by a significant amount and it just raises the prices of everything else on the market.

If you force companies to pay more, the market just adjusts to eat up those extra dollars. It's just how capitalism is. People are going to capitalize on the fact that minimum wage workers got a nice bump. It's not me doing it and it's not me saying it's right or a good thing. I'm just saying that it's how the world works.

That's we'll researched. An increase in the minimum wage will cause some inflation but it's not 1:1. If you double the minimum wage not everything will double in price. For example, gas and food prices(in the supermarket not restaurants) are mostly international(how many barrels OPEC are pumping or how many tons of soybeans were harvested in Brazil will affect it a lot more than Californian law) and will not change.
Also, since not everybody makes MW there will not be double the money floating around.
Hence, it's mostly beneficial to poorer people, it might be slightly disadvantageous that you may need to pay a little more for your latte.

 

[Gutter Chris]

40 nugget meal?
My dog wouldn’t even eat one.

I don't believe you.


I have never met a dog that doesn't like chicken Nuggets. Back in my slum days was the number one cheat code to catching a stray.

 

[RoastBeast]

Lost it's shit? Literally every country lost its shit as for Australia, the biggest issue was largerly a state one with it's excessive lockdowns. The U.S had far worse death rates, positive cases, it also had it's own lockdowns so don't pretend the U.S was some golden standard. It was it's own unique shit show.

It's not laughable it's factual, on average they're behind in healthcare, crime, standard of living, workers rights, public education, incarceration, recidivism etc.

I didn't say life in the U.S is mediocre, it can be a great place to live and for most with an education and/or skillset it is but it has a far lower over safety net than other developed nations so far more people are living pay cheque to pay cheque, unable to afford medical costs, living in poverty or homeless.

Millions of people don't flock to the U.S because it's the greatest country in the world, there's clear geographic and logistical reasoning for that. Besides, this isn't a unique problem to the U.S, every developed nation has it's own problems with illegal immigration, the U.S just has the biggest challenge policing it's border.

I'm not anti U.S at all. I've been there several times and I hope to return, it has many advantages over other countries. It is just factually accurate that the U.S on average has overall lower living standards than most first world nations. To objectively critisize a countries failures isn't to hate it.

I completely disagreed with the way the US handled covid but Australia was by far the most draconian. I mean you guys had camps. Didn't that scare the living shit out of your population? Of course you'll have less deaths and less positive cases if you enforce draconian laws on everyone but that doesn't make for a better life if you're locked up all day with no freedom. Also remember that America was counting people dying with covid as dying from covid so they could make it seem scarier than it was. In the end it was a virus that pretty much only affected old people. Your country was scary as shit in 2020 and I would never consider living there because of that alone.

To each their own. I don't doubt that the US has it's problems but for the majority of the middle class, it's a great place to live despite how little our politicians actually care about us. Most of the people you see bitching about living paycheck to paycheck are living that way because they are impulsive spenders. Corporations are looking to get people addicted and hooked on every product possible and people can't help themselves. Look in the houses of people living in poverty and they all have nice flat screens, TV subscriptions, gaming consoles etc. Their money is for entertainment and they come out of the woodwork crying when the bills are due.

 

[avenue94]

That's we'll researched. An increase in the minimum wage will cause some inflation but it's not 1:1. If you double the minimum wage not everything will double in price. For example, gas and food prices(in the supermarket not restaurants) are mostly international(how many barrels OPEC are pumping or how many tons of soybeans were harvested in Brazil will affect it a lot more than Californian law) and will not change.
Also, since not everybody makes MW there will not be double the money floating around.
Hence, it's mostly beneficial to poorer people, it might be slightly disadvantageous that you may need to pay a little more for your latte.

People act like this also has not been studied to death by economists (actual economists not popular ones who aim for cable news spots). The evidence is pretty strongly in favor of the labor market and economy being able to absorb fairly large minimum wage increases without too much pain.

 

[RoastBeast]

That's we'll researched. An increase in the minimum wage will cause some inflation but it's not 1:1. If you double the minimum wage not everything will double in price. For example, gas and food prices(in the supermarket not restaurants) are mostly international(how many barrels OPEC are pumping or how many tons of soybeans were harvested in Brazil will affect it a lot more than Californian law) and will not change.
Also, since not everybody makes MW there will not be double the money floating around.
Hence, it's mostly beneficial to poorer people, it might be slightly disadvantageous that you may need to pay a little more for your latte.

It's not 1:1 but it's only temporarily advantageous to MW workers when they get a large raise. Everything catches up quickly. Supply and demand. OPEC will certainly raise the price of oil when America now has a higher demand for it because more people have money in their pockets. Apartments and condos will certainly go up because you'll have a large influx of people who now need that type of housing. People who are rooming together will now go out and look for their own place.

It's just how capitalism is. It's a system where people capitalize on each other to get ahead. As soon as they get a pay bump, the rich will capitalize on it and gobble that extra money back up. It happens every time, which is why you never seen minimum wage earners get ahead.

 

[terrapin]

There isn't "plenty for everyone" though. The global GDP per capita is less than half of what these fast food workers are making, so if you want to share the wealth so everybody has the same, almost every working person in this country is going to have to take a huge pay cut, including the burger flippers, and in case you couldn't guess, the job just doesn't exist because nobody is going to open up a store or restaurant if the best you can possibly do is the same as the high school kid working at the register.

Global GDP is like $18k, so why don't you take everything you make beyond that and give it to people making less than that? Of course we know the answer is that you're only generous with other people's money.

Why can't you guys argue honestly? Why is it always a lie? Why do you guys always pretend we're arguing that everyone gets paid the same?

 

[terrapin]

50% of the country ready to do what?

I think anyone that makes minimum wage would already qualify for all sorts of benefits to ensure they survive. Raising minimum wage is just going to make companies raise prices, which in turn basically nullifies the increase anyway. It won't be long before these entry level jobs are automated anyway which will put them out of work regardless.

This argument is a kind of lie. You're acting as if all products made in the United States are made by people who make minimum wage so that if you raise minimum wage all products will go up in price and that's a lie. Only products or services that are made by people who make minimum wage would become more expensive and that doesn't raise prices on everything nor does it lower everyone else's pay. It just means a select group of products or services will go up in price a little bit.


It's propaganda when people try to make it sound like it'll change the entire economy in some drastic way.

 

[terrapin]

It's not 1:1 but it's only temporarily advantageous to MW workers when they get a large raise. Everything catches up quickly. Supply and demand. OPEC will certainly raise the price of oil when America now has a higher demand for it because more people have money in their pockets. Apartments and condos will certainly go up because you'll have a large influx of people who now need that type of housing. People who are rooming together will now go out and look for their own place.

It's just how capitalism is. It's a system where people capitalize on each other to get ahead. As soon as they get a pay bump, the rich will capitalize on it and gobble that extra money back up. It happens every time, which is why you never seen minimum wage earners get ahead.

This is b******* the reason you don't see minimum wage workers get ahead is because minimum wage even when you raise it isn't enough to get ahead...

The way you you guys argue for the exploitation of the weakest among us is fantastic.

 

[cheesus]

I completely disagreed with the way the US handled covid but Australia was by far the most draconian.

Not really, I mean you guys had millions of COVID related deaths & far more political & civil unrest at the time. I wouldn't disagree that it was draconian though.

I mean you guys had camps.

They weren't camps. These people weren't in a tent or a caged area. They were high quality quarantine facilities, you were housed, provided healthcare, medications and food. They were largely implemented to house and treat indigenous communities where hospitals and healthcare access are scarce, and the populations are more prone to death and disease than those of non indigenous populations. Also to those from entering foreign countries entering said area. It's not really that much different to most countries where you were forced to isolate when entering most countries and were forced to isolate in hotels, we just built specific areas for them where there was a lack of resources.

 

[terrapin]

It’s definitely impossible with that attitude.

What amazes me is that these guys think that being completely motivated by greed and selfishness and the desire to exploit human beings will always work better than some kind of balanced approach that includes compassion and love and kindness and intellectual thought and attention placed on how to make that happen.

If I was going to make a theological statement about it, I would say that they have a profound faith in evil greed and selfishness to produce better outcomes than compassion, altruism, and organized thought and action. It's actually a belief that evil is good.

 

[avenue94]

Supply and demand. OPEC will certainly raise the price of oil when America now has a higher demand for it because more people have money in their pockets. Apartments and condos will certainly go up because you'll have a large influx of people who now need that type of housing. People who are rooming together will now go out and look for their own place.

Your entire premise ignores that supply is not finite.

It happens every time, which is why you never seen minimum wage earners get ahead.

They have repeatedly gotten ahead in human history. Are you really arguing that the lives of those in the bottom third of income are worse now than they were in 1800?

 

[RoastBeast]

This argument is a kind of lie. You're acting as if all products made in the United States are made by people who make minimum wage so that if you raise minimum wage all products will go up in price and that's a lie. Only products or services that are made by people who make minimum wage would become more expensive and that doesn't raise prices on everything nor does it lower everyone else's pay. It just means a select group of products or services will go up in price a little bit.


It's propaganda when people try to make it sound like it'll change the entire economy in some drastic way.

Supply and demand. It's not the products they make that are going to go up as much as the goods and services they will now be buying. Just think of how apartments will go up once a huge influx of applicants happens. That extra rent alone will eat up most, if not all of their extra cash and land them right back where they were.

You're confusing arguing for the exploitation of people with just explaining how the system works.

I've seen you put some detailed thought into the trans threads. Put that same thought into this subject and you'll see what we're talking about. It's just the way capitalism is. It basically has the word capitalize in it. There's no other way around it unless you want socialism or communism.

 

[RoastBeast]

Your entire premise ignores that supply is not finite.

They have repeatedly gotten ahead in human history. Are you really arguing that the lives of those in the bottom third of income are worse now than they were in 1800?

1800 is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[avenue94]

1800 is irrelevant to this discussion.

Why is it irrelevant? If not then 1900. The idea that the minimum wage has never helped is wildly ignorant.

 

[terrapin]

Supply and demand. It's not the products they make that are going to go up as much as the goods and services they will now be buying. Just think of how apartments will go up once a huge influx of applicants happens. That extra rent alone will eat up most, if not all of their extra cash and land them right back where they were.

You're confusing arguing for the exploitation of people with just explaining how the system works.

I've seen you put some detailed thought into the trans threads. Put that same thought into this subject and you'll see what we're talking about. It's just the way capitalism is. It basically has the word capitalize in it. There's no other way around it unless you want socialism or communism.

First of all, don't pretend that great thinkers don't disagree with you and do agree with me.

Second of all you have not shown why all goods would go up and all services would go up just because some people have more money. Pretending money is akin to a physical thing like oil is ridiculous. It's not a physical thing... It represents energy and value and poor people, minimum wage workers having more money will not have the devastating effects on the economy you are pretending.

You're acting as if something you are stating is a fact, but we know that's not true. We're just arguing different ways to go about living. Some ways are based on something other than greed and selfishness and evil and exploitation and obviously those are the ways we should be pursuing.

 

[emefer]

I don't believe you.


I have never met a dog that doesn't like chicken Nuggets. Back in my slum days was the number one cheat code to catching a stray.

I thought I was getting him a treat. He turned his nose away.

 

[BudKing8806]

What must be understood is that all humans are built differently. Everyone has their weaknesses, strengths, and limitations.

Not everyone is cut out to work their way up the corporate ladder, go in to business for themself, move in to management, etc. That doesn't mean that those types of people cannot be of value to society, or don't work hard. Indeed, if you think min wage workers are of limited value, this entire country would shut down if all min wage workers went on strike tomorrow. No more gas, grocery stores, delivery drivers, bank tellers, Amazon, and on and on.

The problem is that most corporate structures are too top heavy, meaning they pay their workers an absolute minimum and treat them as expendable so the officers and stockholders can make millions upon millions a year. I would like to see our corporate structures to be more treated like the Japanese. In Japan, the lowliest of the lowly workers are made to feel important and a necessary cog in the machine which does wonders for worker productivity and employee retention. In periods where budget cuts are necessary, it's the highest paid officers who absorb the reductions, unlike in America where those that can least afford it (min wage workers) take the hit.

You are in essence arguing that min wage workers are of no or little value, and we have to keep it that way so Bob McCEO can afford 3 vacation homes, a yacht, and more money than anyone would ever need in a lifetime. How about we raise min wage for people who are contributing to society and if expenses are too much Bob McCEO gives up a reduction in an almost ridiculous compensation package? Bob McCEO's life is not going to change if he is making $200,000 a month rather than $400,000 a month. And again, if you don't think those min wage workers are worth being paid a wage they can barely subsist on, I'd like you to ask yourself how successful WalMart or Amazon would be if all their min wage workers walked off the job nationwide tomorrow. Those businesses would screech to a grinding halt.

That's all nice to think about. But, the reality is Bob McCeo isn't going to give up that bonus regardless. The company will either cut costs to provide a cheaper version of the product, or they will raise prices to offset costs. How many Walmart workers are min wage? I personally only know 3 walmart employees and they all started at more than minimum wage.