Muhammad Ali vs. Wayne Gretzky vs. Tom Brady vs. Michael Jordan?

[Bamboozled]

MJ was one of the best playmakers ever and a better defender than Pippen too. Pippen could guard larger forwards like Barkley better or Magic who was forward sized that's about it

Pippen would be Philly Iguodala if it wasn't for MJ. When Pippen was the #1 option he was getting embarrassed on both ends of the floor by Ewing in the 2nd round, getting benched for the final play for Toni Kukoc when they would've been down 3-0 if it went to Pippen, and wasn't even the Bulls best player in that series with Horace Grant badly outproducing him and playing better D

And MJ was MVP, 4th in DPOY and 1st team all defense in 98 when Pippen missed half the season. Bulls were a top 3 defense despite Pippen missing half the season. Scottie was also unreliable in the playoffs offensively their whole run but specially late. MJ basically won in 98 with Toni Kukoc being his 2nd option on offense with how inconsistent and injury riddled Scottie was that season he'll he even closed playoff games with Scottie out

MJ played with the absolute worst bums pre-Scottie going up against all-time great teams that's why he wasn't getting out of the 1st round. MJ won 50 with rookie Scottie/Grant when they weren't even starter level players and made it to the ECF against an all-time team with a sophomore Scottie, while leading his team in every category from points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks. Scottie with a greater role in the triangle expanded his passing game but MJ could've easily had primary vall handling decision making duties and did numerous times with Scottie out, like Kobe did in the same system. Scottie was ass in the halfcourt tho and MJ is one of the GOAT offball players too unlike Lebron so he doesn't need the ball in his hands and milk the possession for the majority of the time on ball to be effective. That's also a big reason MJ led so many dominant teams in comparison despite Lebron playing with some of the most talent of any star ever

And as far as the pre Scottie/Grant Bulls ppl who bring up the 1st round thing, they can't even name a rotation player on the pre-Scottie/Grant Bulls outside of Oakley and Paxson, without searching basketball reference

Lol @ reading all that shit

I've posted before on Jordan being overrated and not the GOAT.

 

[Hitman81]

Biased because I grew up watching 90s NBA. MJ is the greatest team sports athlete I've ever seen and probably ever will. Brady is #2.

 

[mS_?]

The reason you could argue he doesn't belong is because he didn't play a team sport... And that in itself could make him the greatest athlete ever. All three of those other guys, as great as they are, still rely on an entire team to reach the highest level.

People like to write off boxers thinking it's easy... Like you just go into the to ring and throw punches... Maybe block a few. But there's a variable that's involved that the other three can't say they've had to deal with. When they have an off day their teammates are expected to help bail them out. You have an off day as a boxer, you're in for a world of hurt.

@LazaRRus

Boxing is by far the most difficult sport out of the 4 but then again I never claimed it was easy. If not being a part of a team makes you a better athlete then I guess singles tennis players, mma fighters, and boxers are unquestionably the best athletes. Ali still isn't the GOAT boxer though, and I don't know of a single expert that his him ranked #1 p4p all time. There are people who don't even have him as the #1 heavyweight.

 

[Kjeewb]

Rodney Mullen

none of the people you mention invented a sport that is in the Olympics

 

[paratiddies]

Voted MJ but Tiger’s the most dominant athlete of my lifetime by far

 

[Madmick]

Voted MJ but Tiger’s the most dominant athlete of my lifetime by far

 

[Mark6pro]

Good point but I always thought it was unfair to have so many medals for basically the same event. Sure, have different distances, but the different styles? Who cares. Tell me who is the fastest over that distance, period.

It's like if you had a 100m dash, then one where you run backwards. Another where you sidestep, another where you have to skip....

 

[paratiddies]

Tiger had to beat up to 155 other guys to win a tournament and none of them got weeded out during heats that he wasn’t in. That’s 155 other guys who could have the week of their life you have to beat and at one point he won 7 events in a row. He’s won 82 times in 368 starts (22.2%) and that’s been dragged down significantly since 08/09 when his body started failing him, he was winning about a third of his starts in the early 2000’s

Phelps is great, but 7 of those golds are in team events and how deep is the talent pool in swimming? People are drawn to sports where they can make a living - how many swimmers are able to do that? There are golf tours all over the world and on the PGA Tour alone there were 112 players who had over $1 million in on course earnings in 2019 (the last full season before Covid) and that’s not even counting endorsement money which probably brings the number of guys over $1 mil closer to 150. There just aren’t the same incentives to be a competitive swimmer

 

[Madmick]

Good point but I always thought it was unfair to have so many medals for basically the same event. Sure, have different distances, but the different styles? Who cares. Tell me who is the fastest over that distance, period.

It's like if you had a 100m dash, then one where you run backwards. Another where you sidestep, another where you have to skip....

Those styles are about as similar as the 100m sprint vs. the hurdles, or a golfer like Tiger swinging a driver vs. a wedge. Why have a long jump and a 100m dash? One could argue they're both glorified measurements of speed. Or a long jump and a triple jump.

Tiger had to beat up to 155 other guys to win a tournament and none of them got weeded out during heats that he wasn’t in.

That’s 155 other guys who could have the week of their life you have to beat and at one point he won 7 events in a row. He’s won 82 times in 368 starts (22.2%) and that’s been dragged down significantly since 08/09 when his body started failing him, he was winning about a third of his starts in the early 2000’s

Phelps is great, but 7 of those golds are in team events and how deep is the talent pool in swimming? People are drawn to sports where they can make a living - how many swimmers are able to do that? There are golf tours all over the world and on the PGA Tour alone there were 112 players who had over $1 million in on course earnings in 2019 (the last full season before Covid) and that’s not even counting endorsement money which probably brings the number of guys over $1 mil closer to 150. There just aren’t the same incentives to be a competitive swimmer

Seems silly to talk about talent in a sport where fat guys populate the pros-- and not the kind who lift 200+ kg above their heads or run sub-5.0 second dash times. Golf's a skill sport.

And of course they narrow the field. They have cuts. There are cuts to make the Tour. Then there are cuts during the tournament itself after each day. That's how it works in swimming. Every national class swimmer in the world has a chance at earning a spot. There are cuts all the way up to the Olympics itself.

Besides, if you knew swimming better, you'd realize how silly this argument is. Nobody who was denied a spot in the Final 8 where Phelps won a gold medal ever swam a faster time than him in that event in any other meet in that year. They have consolation heats at most major meets where teams are vying for placement, and they score out to 16 places. At certain national-class meets they even hold a third heat for the #17-#24 swimmers because they're chasing their best times for qualifiers. Nobody ever posts the fastest time from the consolation heats. Never.

You could build a 155-person pool, but it would be a monumental waste of everyone's time. The guys who win medals who have an off-day in the semifinals find themselves with a poor lane assignment. The medal threats don't miss the cut unless they get DQ'd, and that's part of the sport. Phelps couldn't have a single bad start or he would have been DQ'd, and lost a medal. To be that consistent means to be more conservative with starts and turns. That means sacrificing time.

 

[paratiddies]

Seems silly to talk about talent in a sport where fat guys populate the pros-- and not the kind who lift 200+ kg above their heads or run sub-5.0 second dash times. Golf's a skill sport.

And of course they narrow the field. They have cuts. There are cuts to make the Tour. Then there are cuts during the tournament itself after each day. That's how it works in swimming. Every national class swimmer in the world has a chance at earning a spot. There are cuts all the way up to the Olympics itself.

Besides, if you knew swimming better, you'd realize how silly this argument is. Nobody who was denied a spot in the Final 8 where Phelps won a gold medal ever swam a faster time than him in that event in any other meet in that year. They have consolation heats at most major meets where teams are vying for placement, and they score out to 16 places. At certain national-class meets they even hold a third heat for the #17-#24 swimmers because they're chasing their best times for qualifiers. Nobody ever posts the fastest time from the consolation heats. Never.

You could build a 155-person pool, but it would be a monumental waste of everyone's time. The guys who win medals who have an off-day in the semifinals find themselves with a poor lane assignment. The medal threats don't miss the cut unless they get DQ'd, and that's part of the sport. Phelps couldn't have a single bad start or he would have been DQ'd, and lost a medal. To be that consistent means to be more conservative with starts and turns. That means sacrificing time.

Saying that fat guys can play golf for a living doesn’t help your argument, it only brings more competitors into the fold. 99.99% of the earths population had no chance of beating Phelps at swimming before they were even out of the womb - he’s tall, has huge hands and feet, an abnormally long torso, and short legs, all ideal for swimming

Since golf is about skill almost anyone can compete, off of the top of my head Ian Woosman at 5’4 and George Archer at 6’6 both won majors. Most guys can also compete at the highest level until their early 40’s (or later) so that just adds to the talent pool - there’s not a 10-12 year window for the best like in swimming, it’s more like 20-25 years in golf

Woods holds the record for the widest margin of victory in each of golf’s 3 biggest events - 15 shots at the US Open, 12 shots at the Masters, and 8 at the British Open - that’s dominant. Phelps would practically have to win gold in the 400m medley and then get out of the pool and dry off before the next swimmer finished for something comparable

The nature of the two sports also make golf infinitely more difficult to dominate. One is about speed, you have it or you don’t and that doesn’t vary much from day to day, even in a sport measured in hundredths of a second. Golf is a completely different animal - every course, every shot is unique. There’s different weather, grasses, sand in the bunkers, lies, grain and slope on the greens, etc. Then you add in tiny variables within a swing that can ruin a shot - a club face being one degree open or closed at impact means a missed fairway. There’s a million things that can wrong, that’s why you see players like David Duval go from being #1 in the world to not being able to break 80

 

[Madmick]

Saying that fat guys can play golf for a living doesn’t help your argument, it only brings more competitors into the fold. 99.99% of the earths population had no chance of beating Phelps at swimming before they were even out of the womb - he’s tall, has huge hands and feet, an abnormally long torso, and short legs, all ideal for swimming

That's a ridiculous, ignorant number. Gather up all the humans with similar dimensions: big feet, long torsos, short legs. I'll show you millions of people who never won a race in swimming. I'll show you 99.9% of them who actually did swim aren't better than champions with anthropomorphically less desirable traits.

Phelps was more dominant than Tiger. Full stop.

 

[paratiddies]

That's a ridiculous, ignorant number. Gather up all the humans with similar dimensions: big feet, long torsos, short legs. I'll show you millions of people who never won a race in swimming. I'll show you 99.9% of them who actually did swim aren't better than champions with anthropomorphically less desirable traits.

Phelps was more dominant than Tiger. Full stop.

Less than 1% of the male population worldwide is 6’4 or above. At 6’4 he also has the torso of someone 6’8 and the legs of someone that’s 5’8 along with size 14 feet - he’s a genetic freak just like the other small percentage of people who are elite swimmers

Anyway, I find you absolutely exhausting and you’ll just post wall after wall of text until I walk away from this - what Tiger has done is more impressive to me by a wide margin

 

[Madmick]

Less than 1% of the male population worldwide is 6’4 or above. At 6’4 he also has the torso of someone 6’8 and the legs of someone that’s 5’8 along with size 14 feet - he’s a genetic freak just like the other small percentage of people who are elite swimmers

So what? Taller men possess an innate advantage for almost any athletic endeavor by those proportions. You'd disqualify nearly the entire NBA as the most athletic, accomplished, dominant competitors by this metric, and yet athletes from every other major sport in the world plurally acknowledge that NBA players are the most gifted all-around athletes.

It's inherently contradictory to count elite traits against athletes when it is the parameters of competition itself-- the preponderance of athletic competitions, not just swimming-- which select these traits as an advantage.

Golf is a rich man's sport. Now there's a pre-existing mode of selection that holds no correlation to athletic prowess.

 

[paratiddies]

So what? Taller men possess an innate advantage for almost any athletic endeavor by those proportions. You'd disqualify nearly the entire NBA as the most athletic, accomplished, dominant competitors by this metric, and yet athletes from every other major sport in the world plurally acknowledge that NBA players are the most gifted all-around athletes.

It's inherently contradictory to count elite traits against athletes when it is the parameters of competition itself-- the preponderance of athletic competitions, not just swimming-- which select these traits as an advantage.

Golf is a rich man's sport. Now there's a pre-existing mode of selection that holds no correlation to athletic prowess.

This discussion got derailed at fat guys, but to summarize: being better by razor thin margins in a fringe sport no one cares about outside of the Olympics every 4 years isn’t dominance. Excellence? Absolutely

Beating your next closest competitors by 15 and 12 shots and turning the last round into a victory lap is as dominant as it gets

 

[Madmick]

This discussion got derailed at fat guys, but to summarize: being better by razor thin margins in a fringe sport no one cares about outside of the Olympics every 4 years isn’t dominance. Excellence? Absolutely

Beating your next closest competitors by 15 and 12 shots and turning the last round into a victory lap is as dominant as it gets

Silly. Phelps destroyed his closest competition in his strongest races. The reason he didn't win by staggering margins was because he stopped specializing in his career so early. If he swam nothing but the 200m Fly and the 400M IM he would have set records that wouldn't be broken for 30+ years. He broke the 200M Fly WR when he was 15. Tiger would have gotten railroaded at the Master's when he was 15.

Tiger has some of the most dominant finishes we've ever seen, but they weren't even the most dominant of all time at the time he achieved them. Phelps' gold medal count-- total in a single Olympics, for certain events in a career, or for a career overall-- have not. Tiger didn't even win more majors than Jack.

What Phelps did would be like winning every major in a single year, while also averaging the longest drive across all four majors in a single year, while also averaging the highest number of fairways hit on drives, while also averaging the closest distance to the pin from approach shots inside of 50 yards, while also averaging the lowest putts per hole, while also notching the most par five greens hit in 3 or fewer strokes, while also accumulating the most birdies & eagles while simultaneously on the longest streak without a bogey, and while also hitting the fewest hazards, too.

 

[Badger67]

Super Mario missed two months due to cancer and then came back to lead his team to 15 consecutive wins and outscore the rest of the league. He was on pace to match Gretzky's 215 point season before having to sit out. After coming back from cancer treatment, he finished the season with 160 points (top in the league) in just 60 games. That's more points per game than Gretzky's best season. His career was injury plagued and he played fewer seasons. It came out to something like 500 fewer games. Gretzky also had a stronger supporting cast for most of their careers.

Gretzky is definitely the GOAT hockey player and you could argue that he's also the best ever, but for one game I'll take Lemieux.

Ditto.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Tiger at his peak was the most dominant imo.

They literally had to change the game to try and stop him from winning as much. When it comes to anyone, he is the only one that was so dominant they had to do that.

 

[SaiWa]

They literally had to change the game to try and stop him from winning as much. When it comes to anyone, he is the only one that was so dominant they had to do that.

Agreed for the game of golf. Arguably also for any sports.

There were plenty of athletes that forced some crazy rule changes.

NBA had a bunch for Wilt Chamberlain. Goaltending/interference, Inbound over backboard, widening the lane (12ft to 16ft) - All because Wilt couldn't be stopped. They banned dunking in college for almost a decade ('67-'76) because of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (at least it was one of the excuse. it was more racism IMO). Fuckin' dunking wasn't allowed in basketball... lol

Lawrence Taylor single handedly changed how defense played and forced offense to create schemes specifically to try and stop him.

 

[Gambit MMA]

out of this group, and since this is sherdog anyway, id say ali with jordan being close.

brady relies more on the team. football has a lot of moving parts and players that need to execute their role. basketball its on a smaller scale - 5 v 5, you play O and D, and in jordans case, he was able to do things on his own without relying on teammates as much. dude is a career 30ppg scorer in a slower paced game. he'd average 40 these days.

brady has to throw the ball to a receiver, who has to catch it. good and bad receivers make or break quaterbacks. a good offensive line makes the QB also.

i dont know shit about hockey, so i wont weigh in on wayne

 

[GutterSniper]

Most dominant champion in their sport in this poll? Obviously Gretzky. His longevity and dominance were on another level, and he’s the only one here that you can’t make a decent argument for his competition being better than him.

Phelps and Tiger showed a similar level of dominance in their sports, but I’ll give the edge to Tiger over Phelps for being more dominant in his victories and having better competition.

That being said, swimming is closer to horse racing than sports that require using your brain like golf, football, and hockey.