Social Muslim protestors chant 'death to America, death to Israel at rally in Dearborn Michigan after city was branded 'Jihad capital' of U.S. by WSJ

[K1levelgrappler]

The left and Muslims are on the same side because they want to destroy America and the west to take away people's rights an put in draconian laws.

It’s not wrong to destroy something that’s fundamentally evil and unsalvageable

 

[Rational Poster]

It's not a conspiracy. The Israeli military governor of Gaza back in the day was funneling funds to Hamas because they hoped it would weaken the PLO.

I'm saying that Hamas is a more minor case of the mujahideen. International powers tried to put their thumb on the scale for short term gain and it backfired long term.

It's quite the conspiracy for sure, especially if you're trying to blame Israel for all their actions and use it as a reason to justify the forever war that has been going on for over 80 years.

The reality is it the Palestinians truly wanted peace they would have it.

 

[Bojka]

And what is the solution to dealing with the Muslims already here like me? Should the US take the China route?

Solution to what?

I think the west should start treating Islam like every other religion. That hasn't happened up until now in part because of some subset of them having a tendency toward terrorism (at least in the tone of their language) any time Islam is ridiculed. The other being because ridicule of it is conflated with racism.

You should be able to talk about Islam the same way the South Park creators did in the Book of Mormon musical.

Most Muslims are more or less the same race as white people. Their religion is in the same family as Christianity. They should be some of the most familiar people, but instead they are some of the least because of how zealous they typically are. Some amount of social conditioning is probably necessary. Lack of freedom to ridicule Islam contributes to Islamophobia and lack of ridicule contributes to the hypersensitivity and probably fundamentalist nature of Muslims.

I'd like to see a song like this about Islam. Just change a few words like American -> Arabian, Joseph Smith -> Mohammed, blonde/blue eyed -> black hair/brown eyed, Rochester New York -> Mecca, Moroni -> Gabriel, etc.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Solution to what?

I think the west should start treating Islam like every other religion. That hasn't happened up until now in part because of some subset of them having a tendency toward terrorism (at least in the tone of their language) any time Islam is ridiculed. The other being because ridicule of it is conflated with racism.

You should be able to talk about Islam the same way the South Park creators did in the Book of Mormon musical.

Most Muslims are more or less the same race as white people. Their religion is in the same family as Christianity. They should be some of the most familiar people, but instead they are some of the least because of how zealous they typically are. Some amount of social conditioning is probably necessary. Lack of freedom to ridicule Islam contributes to Islamophobia and lack of ridicule contributes to the hypersensitivity and probably fundamentalist nature of Muslims.

I'd like to see a song like this about Islam. Just change a few words like American -> Arabian, Joseph Smith -> Mohammed, blonde/blue eyed -> black hair/brown eyed, Rochester New York -> Mecca, Moroni -> Gabriel, etc.

No religion in any time or place gets treated the same as every other religion because each has their own unique history and relationship to society.

Let's take the Mormons since you've brought them up. They get made fun of much more so than virtually every other religion. On the other hand Western societies and European ones in particular are significantly more sensitive to criticism and ridicule of Jews and that's because of the history of antisemitism and specifically Holocaust.

So many people are rightly skeptical of folks who want to single out the Jews for ridicule or scorn whereas singling out Mormons comes off as harmless ribbing at worst. And that's perfectly fair, treating anti-Mormonism as equal to antisemitism would be nonsensical given the vastly different history there.

 

[avenue94]

It's quite the conspiracy for sure, especially if you're trying to blame Israel for all their actions and use it as a reason to justify the forever war that has been going on for over 80 years.

The reality is it the Palestinians truly wanted peace they would have it.

It's a direct quote from that person I mentioned. It's not a conspiracy to say, Israel and the US have backed Hamas at many points in its history in order to counterbalance more secular Palestinian groups. Therefore, they bear some responsibly (not primary responsibility) for what Hamas is today.

The reality is it the Palestinians truly wanted peace they would have it.

Again, not how the world works. That would be like me saying if Americans had wanted peace, they should have made sure the US never invaded Iraq. It's dumb post-facto thinking that ignores the complexities and context of rather multifaceted situations where there are no good guys.

 

[Bojka]

No religion in any time or place gets treated the same as every other religion because each has their own unique history and relationship to society.

Let's take the Mormons since you've brought them up. They get made fun of much more so than virtually every other religion. On the other hand Western societies and European ones in particular are significantly more sensitive to criticism and ridicule of Jews and that's because of the history of antisemitism and specifically Holocaust.

So many people are rightly skeptical of folks who want to single out the Jews for ridicule or scorn whereas singling out Mormons comes off as harmless ribbing at worst. And that's perfectly fair, treating anti-Mormonism as equal to antisemitism would be nonsensical given the vastly different history there.

I don't think anti-semitism really has much of anything to do with their religion. I think most of them are pretty secular at this point anyway.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don't think anti-semitism really has much of anything to do with their religion. I think most of them are pretty secular at this point anyway.

There's a racial angle that matters but that's not wholly inseparable from the religious angle and I would say there's a similar though less clear racial angle in regards to anti-Islam sentiment as well.

Another key point is that these things change depending on the context. Anti-Christian sentiment in a place like the UK or the US isn't taken seriously because Christians and Christian culture are seen as the dominant cultural influence. But in a country like Egypt or Turkey or Pakistan anti-Christian sentiment has far more sinister undertones because the stakes are far higher. Some politically incorrect Christian in the US being "canceled" for saying something mean about Islam is going to be fine but a Christian in rural Pakistan accused of blasphemy could be imprisoned, executed, or attacked by a mob.

 

[Lucas1980]

The left and Muslims are on the same side because they want to destroy America and the west to take away people's rights an put in draconian laws.

Some virtue signaling Muppets will say "Yeah But Americas bad..Mmmm OK".... But will never leave when there's plenty of opportunity to do so. If anything America is far to generous.

 

[Bojka]

There's a racial angle that matters but that's not wholly inseparable from the religious angle and I would say there's a similar though less clear racial angle in regards to anti-Islam sentiment as well.

Another key point is that these things change depending on the context. Anti-Christian sentiment in a place like the UK or the US isn't taken seriously because Christians and Christian culture are seen as the dominant cultural influence. But in a country like Egypt or Turkey or Pakistan anti-Christian sentiment has far more sinister undertones because the stakes are far higher. Some politically incorrect Christian in the US being "canceled" for saying something mean about Islam is going to be fine but a Christian in rural Pakistan accused of blasphemy could be imprisoned, executed, or attacked by a mob.

I see Islam basically the same as I see Mormonism. It's all the same to me. I guess the Book of Mormon is the 3rd part of a trilogy (Return of the Jedi as Elder Cunningham from the song says) whereas the Quran claims the Empire Strikes Back is non-canon and presented itself as the true sequel to A New Hope.

Pretty much every white person my age in Canada is non-religious. I asked my sister at Easter if she knows a single person in our age range who is religious and she said no. Jesus is seen the same as Santa Claus. A cultural symbol at most. Easter is just a random festivity or excuse for the family to get together.

I don't think there is a racial angle. People where I live tend to think much more positively of Christian Lebanese (they're basically off-white) than they do of Muslim Lebanese who seem foreign.

Hitler as far as I know didn't care if a Jew was atheist or religious. And anti-semites in the west nowadays don't either. It's a racial thing period.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I see Islam basically the same as I see Mormonism. It's all the same to me. I guess the Book of Mormon is the 3rd part of a trilogy (Return of the Jedi as Elder Cunningham from the song says) whereas the Quran claims the Empire Strikes Back is non-canon and offered itself as a different sequel to A New Hope.

Pretty much every white person my age in Canada is non-religious. I asked my sister at Easter if she knows a single person in our age range who is religious and she said no. Jesus is seen the same as Santa Claus. A cultural symbol at most. Easter is just a random festivity or excuse for the family to get together.

I don't think there is a racial angle. People where I live tend to think much more positively of Christian Lebanese (they're basically off-white) than they do of Muslim Lebanese who seem foreign.

Hitler as far as I know didn't care if a Jew was atheist or religious. And anti-semites in the west nowadays don't either. It's a racial thing period.

You can say its all the same to you but on a wider level what I said still stands.

I definitely think there's a racial angle even if its not the case in each and every instance.

 

[Bojka]

You can say its all the same to you but on a wider level what I said still stands.

I definitely think there's a racial angle even if its not the case in each and every instance.

That has to do with the lack of freedom to ridicule Islam and the hypersensitivity and zealotry of Muslims. It would be seen as much more similar in a broad sense if you were allowed to treat it similarly and if Muslims responded similarly to ridicule.

If the middle east had a Christian history instead of a Muslim one or if Muslims were less fundamentalist I don't think middle easterners would be seen as much different from southern Europeans. You can barely tell a Lebanese and a southern Italian apart.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That has to do with the lack of freedom to ridicule Islam and the hypersensitivity and zealotry of Muslims. It would be seen as much more similar in a broad sense if you were allowed to treat it similarly and if Muslims responded similarly to ridicule.

If the middle east had a Christian history instead of a Muslim one or if Muslims were less fundamentalist I don't think middle easterners would be seen as much different from southern Europeans. You can barely tell a Lebanese and a southern Italian apart.

If only we had to freedom to ridicule Muslims.

 

[Rational Poster]

It's a direct quote from that person I mentioned. It's not a conspiracy to say, Israel and the US have backed Hamas at many points in its history in order to counterbalance more secular Palestinian groups. Therefore, they bear some responsibly (not primary responsibility) for what Hamas is today.

Again, not how the world works. That would be like me saying if Americans had wanted peace, they should have made sure the US never invaded Iraq. It's dumb post-facto thinking that ignores the complexities and context of rather multifaceted situations where there are no good guys.

I mean claiming the PLO secular is quite the stretch. They have a martyrs brigade and pay families for suicide bombing. They were also very active in international terror at the time. Maybe you can make the claim they've secularized since they've been neutered during the second intifada which they started. I still wouldn't call them secular, that's for sure.

It is how the world works if two parties want peace. They would negotiate at some point during 80 years of the conflict. The Palestinians do not peace. They want Israel to not exist.

 

[Teppodama]

If only we had to freedom to ridicule Muslims.

Interesting example. It makes me wonder how many Muslims of the variety to be offended by his puppet characterization are actually aware of him to BE offended. Also, that puppet is obviously a caricature of a radical fundamentalist muslim but how close does he actually come to outright ridiculing Islam itself or Muhammad in his skits with his puppet?

 

[avenue94]

I mean claiming the PLO secular is quite the stretch. They have a martyrs brigade and pay families for suicide bombing. They were also very active in international terror at the time. Maybe you can make the claim they've secularized since they've been neutered during the second intifada which they started. I still wouldn't call them secular, that's for sure.

At this point they are the main secular party. We can talk about why there aren't more secular players (again, Israel, the US and also neighboring countries have done their best to make sure these kind of groups don't gain traction).

It is how the world works if two parties want peace. They would negotiate at some point during 80 years of the conflict. The Palestinians do not peace. They want Israel to not exist.

It's not just two parties. Any peace agreements need buy in from the US and neighboring countries. No one has really tried to help the peace process along, and if they did, it was while sabotaging it in other ways. There are certainly failures on the side of the Palestinians, but it pales in comparison to the sabotage and betrayals we've seen from Israel, Egypt, Jordan, or the US, for example.

I'll also add saying Palestinians do not want peace is a comically useless statement given many of these Palestinians are products of their environment and responding to it. You can't blame a 16 year completely for not wanting peace and hating Israel when that well has been poisoned decades before they were even born.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Interesting example. It makes me wonder how many Muslims of the variety to be offended by his puppet characterization are actually aware of him to BE offended.

Jeff Dunham was a pretty big act at the time and I can assure you if you were a Muslim in America who didn't watch his material someone was going to bring it up to you. Kind of like how if you were Indian and didn't watch The Simpsons someone was going to say "tHaNk yOu cOmE aGaIn" at some point and expect you to laugh.

 

[Rational Poster]

At this point they are the main secular party. We can talk about why there aren't more secular players (again, Israel, the US and also neighboring countries have done their best to make sure these kind of groups don't gain traction).

It's not just two parties. Any peace agreements need buy in from the US and neighboring countries. No one has really tried to help the peace process along, and if they did, it was while sabotaging it in other ways. There are certainly failures on the side of the Palestinians, but it pales in comparison to the sabotage and betrayals we've seen from Israel, Egypt, Jordan, or the US, for example.

I'll also add saying Palestinians do not want peace is a comically useless statement given many of these Palestinians are products of their environment and responding to it. You can't blame a 16 year completely for not wanting peace and hating Israel when that well has been poisoned decades before they were even born.

Israel has literally negotiated peace with every single belligerent involved in the war and even ceded territory. This is just wrong.

The PLO is not secular then or now. This is again just wrong.

The Palestinians are not ruled by children. This is just ridiculous.

 

[Teppodama]

Jeff Dunham was a pretty big act at the time and I can assure you if you were a Muslim in America who didn't watch his material someone was going to bring it up to you. Kind of like how if you were Indian and didn't watch The Simpsons someone was going to say "tHaNk yOu cOmE aGaIn" at some point and expect you to laugh.

I am familiar with Dunham but not in a truly informed way as he simply wasn't a comic I spent much time watching. I know he had this particular character and a grumpy old white guy puppet and a jalapeno Mexican character. That being said, I can't remember anything specific about the skits themselves. I am aware of him the same way I'm aware of Jeff Foxworthy. I know the name, know I've seen at least some part of show of his online or on TV or something but nothing specific beyond "Here's your sign" and his niche being southern / country infused humor. Much like Larry the Cable Guy and his insufferable "Git'er Done".

 

[avenue94]

Israel has literally negotiated peace with every single belligerent involved in the war and even ceded territory. This is just wrong.

The PLO is not secular then or now. This is again just wrong.

The Palestinians are not ruled by children. This is just ridiculous.

Israel has done no different from the US or any of the Arab countries in the region: used the Palestinian issue as a political cudgel domestically and tried to advance their perceived interests at the expense of long term peace or an independent Palestinian state. At this point, it is what it is, there isn't a point in trying to deny what's amply supported by reams of historical records and research.

Secular is relative, my entire point that you keep ignoring and going farther afield of is:
1. Yes, Israel and the US financially and tactically supported Hamas' rise because they wanted to weaken the PLO or more secular alternatives. This divide and conquer strategy isn't the primary reason Hamas exists and does the vile things it does, but it's undeniable that Israel and US bear partial responsibility.
2. It's outrageous to say Palestinians are completely responsible for Hamas and fair game because Hamas is on paper their leaders. It's like me claiming a middle schooler bears responsibility for the US voting GW Bush into power and invading Iraq.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Chanting "Death to America" seems like a clear case of unprotected speech, no?