Rear kick / shadowboxing advice

[Monte Moku]

Hello, I have been focusing on my rear kick a bit recently. Before I say anything else, this what it looks like on the heavy bag. I start kicking a bit before the 30 second mark.



In the beginning I am working on shifting my weight from my back foot forward. I have noticed in the past that I am not turning enough and the arc of my kick has been off. My coach was working with me and showed me that the arc of the kick is moving upward diagonally into the target, where in the past I have been going up diagonally and then turning my leg horizontally into the target (a habit I am still trying to expunge). I have also been trying to step out more, since I tend to just kick from the spot my lead leg is instead of taking the small step to open my hips. Oh, and of course there is the matter of dropping my left hand that I still do occasionally. I am listing all of these things because these are issues I am aware of and actively working on, but I feel as if every time I make progress in one facet of the kick, I discover something new that I am doing incorrectly. I have neglected shadow boxing consistently for way too long (my coach has us shadow at the gym, but at home I have not done it on a consistent basis). I have been trying to do it at home more, and my god does my kick suck!! Here is a video I recorded in my living room today:



When I watched it back, I noticed that my standing leg was too bent, I was leaning back too much, I was dropping my guard to compensate for my lack of balance and I felt like I couldn't open up my hips, which not only lead to my hips not moving enough, but I felt the arc of the kick was very sloppy. So after a while trying to correct my mistakes, I had another go at recording it for your viewing pleasure:



Once I started transferring my weight forward a bit more, I felt like I could open up my hips more, but my balance was gone, I was looking down and I couldn't really come back to my stance without having to readjust my feet and weight distribution.

My coach has told me that I need to stop being lazy at home and drill it more and the rest will come with time, and I agree with him, but I wanted to ask you guys as well to see if there are other points that need to be worked on that I am not aware of or if I am just overthinking this too much. Thank you for reading and have a nice day

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You're along the right lines. At the moment though for me, you're swinging through with momentum rather than control, so your kick is looking a bit awkward and your hips are getting caught up - try to kick upwards and in, rather than coming out and round - a lot of coaches in the US teach swinging like a baseball bat but its bad form - you want it to be something like this ideally:



Greg Wootton is a Muay Thai champion from the UK, and what he's teaching here is a lot closer to how you'd actually be taught in Thailand a few years back.



Scott Adkins is a martial arts/action star with a heavy TKD background, his hybridisation of Muay Thai and TKD in his kick actually comes out closer to a real old school Muay Thai kick than what most people end up showing when they try to teach it.




A few exercises I get people to do:

Kick diagonally to build dynamic flexibility in the correct angle. Do this by standing normally and kicking straight up into the air, when you feel you've got that 'right' alter the angle and do it again but kick slightly towards your opposite shoulder. When you have that motion down, you'll already have a kicking pattern closer to a proper kick.

As you throw a kick (on the bag) turn around and look behind you as you kick, so if you throw your right kick, look over your left shoulder - this will get your body to move further into the kick without you having to kick harder or with more effort. Do about ten of these in a row, and then when you kick for the 11th time, keep yourself looking at the bag, but maintain the body movement of before.

A common mistake is in when people try to swing their arm down for counter balance, but yank their shoulder back instead. Watch Greg Wootton, and you'll see that while he does swing his arm down, his shoulder doesn't come down with the arm, his upper body and hip all turn into the kick and if you pause video at the end of his kick his shoulder and hip are in line with each other as the kick lands.

 

[Monte Moku]

You're along the right lines. At the moment though for me, you're swinging through with momentum rather than control, so your kick is looking a bit awkward and your hips are getting caught up - try to kick upwards and in, rather than coming out and round - a lot of coaches in the US teach swinging like a baseball bat but its bad form - you want it to be something like this ideally:



Greg Wootton is a Muay Thai champion from the UK, and what he's teaching here is a lot closer to how you'd actually be taught in Thailand a few years back.



Scott Adkins is a martial arts/action star with a heavy TKD background, his hybridisation of Muay Thai and TKD in his kick actually comes out closer to a real old school Muay Thai kick than what most people end up showing when they try to teach it.




A few exercises I get people to do:

Kick diagonally to build dynamic flexibility in the correct angle. Do this by standing normally and kicking straight up into the air, when you feel you've got that 'right' alter the angle and do it again but kick slightly towards your opposite shoulder. When you have that motion down, you'll already have a kicking pattern closer to a proper kick.

As you throw a kick (on the bag) turn around and look behind you as you kick, so if you throw your right kick, look over your left shoulder - this will get your body to move further into the kick without you having to kick harder or with more effort. Do about ten of these in a row, and then when you kick for the 11th time, keep yourself looking at the bag, but maintain the body movement of before.

A common mistake is in when people try to swing their arm down for counter balance, but yank their shoulder back instead. Watch Greg Wootton, and you'll see that while he does swing his arm down, his shoulder doesn't come down with the arm, his upper body and hip all turn into the kick and if you pause video at the end of his kick his shoulder and hip are in line with each other as the kick lands.

My coach definitely teaches the 'baseball bat' style. The way you described it and especially the last video sound/look like what the coaches in Thailand were trying to explain to me, but my Thai and their English were not good enough to communicate details well. I am going to practice the hell out of those drills, thank you for the advice!!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

My coach definitely teaches the 'baseball bat' style. The way you described it and especially the last video sound/look like what the coaches in Thailand were trying to explain to me, but my Thai and their English were not good enough to communicate details well. I am going to practice the hell out of those drills, thank you for the advice!!

Yeah, nothing against your coach of course, I've never trained with him - but the baseball bat kick is very much an American thing. It's not something top fighters in the UK, or guys in Thailand do. I know some people will say that Yodsanklai swings his leg like a bat but... he doesn't, its still a pretty narrow arc! I'd say go with what the Thai coaches say and keep practising it, if you start kicking better with more power, your coach probably isn't going to notice whether or not you're doing it 'his way'

Glad the advice could help. Best of luck to you. Post again soon to show us how its going!

 

[eternaldarkness]

Yeah, nothing against your coach of course, I've never trained with him - but the baseball bat kick is very much an American thing. It's not something top fighters in the UK, or guys in Thailand do. I know some people will say that Yodsanklai swings his leg like a bat but... he doesn't, its still a pretty narrow arc! I'd say go with what the Thai coaches say and keep practising it, if you start kicking better with more power, your coach probably isn't going to notice whether or not you're doing it 'his way'

Glad the advice could help. Best of luck to you. Post again soon to show us how its going!

Not sure if it's good advice, but I would say ts gives himself a bit more distance and pushes forward with the hips a bit more.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Not sure if it's good advice, but I would say ts gives himself a bit more distance and pushes forward with the hips a bit more.

I think that's good advice!

 

[Monte Moku]

Small update:
https://youtube.com/shorts/vjfbiEYeEJE?feature=share

I feel like the arc of the kick is much narrower (but still not quite right) and I'm using my hips more. I can feel more power in the kick, however I feel like I'm not getting my knee high enough before turning over and sometimes I don't turn my heel on the kick, instead doing a hop. Also I am having trouble not chambering the kick so much. Focusing on narrowing the path of the kick is making it come out a bit more Karate-like than Muay Thai. I was watching a video of Damien Trainor kicking and he seems to get his knee a bit higher before turning over, but that arc is just so subtle!!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Small update:
https://youtube.com/shorts/vjfbiEYeEJE?feature=share

I feel like the arc of the kick is much narrower (but still not quite right) and I'm using my hips more. I can feel more power in the kick, however I feel like I'm not getting my knee high enough before turning over and sometimes I don't turn my heel on the kick, instead doing a hop. Also I am having trouble not chambering the kick so much. Focusing on narrowing the path of the kick is making it come out a bit more Karate-like than Muay Thai. I was watching a video of Damien Trainor kicking and he seems to get his knee a bit higher before turning over, but that arc is just so subtle!!

You've got a definite solid kick to work with, keep studying the Damien Trainor videos for sure, it's okay if the kick looks a bit karate like, the truth is that the stereotypical mauy thai kick is a western invention, proper Thais kicks are whippy in the same way a karate kick can be, its just there isn't a chamber

 

[Monte Moku]

You've got a definite solid kick to work with, keep studying the Damien Trainor videos for sure, it's okay if the kick looks a bit karate like, the truth is that the stereotypical mauy thai kick is a western invention, proper Thais kicks are whippy in the same way a karate kick can be, its just there isn't a chamber

Thank you for your kind words. I am going to keep working on it!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Thank you for your kind words. I am going to keep working on it!

The main thing is that you can land it consistently, I think it's a solid kick now, obviously there's always stuff to work on but if someone asked me 'can this guy kick' and showed me your video, I would say yes. My main critique now is that I think you're turning your hip over a bit too much, try kicking a little more on an upwards angle, but don't worry about it too much, you have a life time to improve

 

[Frode Falch]

I hate my kicks in shadow boxing. So i just do the movement for doing it.

But please dont do a pirouette. No turn, or 180 turn.

And DONT do a pirouette by your own choice. Please.

 

[Paradigm]

I hate my kicks in shadow boxing. So i just do the movement for doing it.

But please dont do a pirouette. No turn, or 180 turn.

And DONT do a pirouette by your own choice. Please.

Like this guy???

 

[Frode Falch]

Like this guy???

He does a 180. Thats fine.

No turn - yes
180 - fine
360 - no

 

[Monte Moku]

Small update featuring my world class Boxing skills.

Feel like I'm getting more of a kinetic chain now, the dramatic hip turn was causing me to lose a lot of power and develop a bad habit of keeping a bunch of tension in my knee while kicking. Sometimes I feel the motion and it just flows... Man those moments are just enthralling. Even though I still have too much tension and my technique isn't as refined, I am beginning to understand how the Thais look so relaxed when they fight. As long as I put my feet in the right place, I feel like I can get that flow. It's made me appreciate the subtle footwork that is required to be a skilled fighter so much more as my knowledge of this one technique grows. I remember reading once that one of the greatest wrestlers, Aleksandr Karelin, based his entire PhD around suplex counters and I think I can finally understand how; the hidden complexities and subtle mechanics of just one technique is incredible! It's beautiful to me that when I finally grasp something new in fighting, it's not like it's been hidden and I have learned some secret, it's been there the whole time. It feels like I am not just learning how to fight, but learning how to see, feel and process information in a new way. I'm getting a bit flowery for a shitty 15 second padwork clip, sorry haha. I just really love this stuff.

 

[shincheckin]

Watched the first vid. Your not rotating enough. Easier said then done to fix i know. Try to "over rotate" youll find this ends up making you rotate enough.

Also i see many ppl not rotate enough cause they are worried about bringing the leg back to stance. Rather than bring your leg back at the end of the kick, pin it to the bag. This will help you transfer your weight all the way through. Once there check your position and technique.

 

[Monte Moku]

Watched the first vid. Your not rotating enough. Easier said then done to fix i know. Try to "over rotate" youll find this ends up making you rotate enough.

Also i see many ppl not rotate enough cause they are worried about bringing the leg back to stance. Rather than bring your leg back at the end of the kick, pin it to the bag. This will help you transfer your weight all the way through. Once there check your position and technique.

Thank you for the advice! When you say first video, do you mean the one at the beginning of the thread? I feel like my kick has evolved a bit since then (for better or for worse haha), @AndyMaBobs felt I was turning too much (after a bit of change on my end), so I started to work on setting up the angle better so I'm not over-compensating. Now I feel like I am able to put my hips into it more meaningfully but still not quite enough!

Aside from technique work, I have also been doing more weightlifting because I feel like one of the biggest contributors to my technical issues (aside from the technical issues themselves ofc) is the fact that I am all skin and bones hahaha

 

[shincheckin]

Thank you for the advice! When you say first video, do you mean the one at the beginning of the thread? I feel like my kick has evolved a bit since then (for better or for worse haha), @AndyMaBobs felt I was turning too much (after a bit of change on my end), so I started to work on setting up the angle better so I'm not over-compensating. Now I feel like I am able to put my hips into it more meaningfully but still not quite enough!

Aside from technique work, I have also been doing more weightlifting because I feel like one of the biggest contributors to my technical issues (aside from the technical issues themselves ofc) is the fact that I am all skin and bones hahaha

Yeah at begining of thread.

I wouldnt worry about your muscles being the problem. Infact trying to do any technique strong and muscle through it tends to be the root of the problem.

If you cant do it slow you cant do it fast.

If you cant do it soft you cant do it hard

Correct technique brings power. If you golf for example you dont need to swing hard, just correctly to hit it far. Same concept.

Try what i said lightly.

Something as simple as kicking over a chair or what not will help you kick through rather than too.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Thank you for the advice! When you say first video, do you mean the one at the beginning of the thread? I feel like my kick has evolved a bit since then (for better or for worse haha), @AndyMaBobs felt I was turning too much (after a bit of change on my end), so I started to work on setting up the angle better so I'm not over-compensating. Now I feel like I am able to put my hips into it more meaningfully but still not quite enough!

Aside from technique work, I have also been doing more weightlifting because I feel like one of the biggest contributors to my technical issues (aside from the technical issues themselves ofc) is the fact that I am all skin and bones hahaha

Yah, over rotating is a very 'American Muay Thai' thing - very easy to do especially when you start getting told to turn your hip over by pretty much everyone, which isn't bad advice it's just not always helpful for everyone.

Make sure that your knee is up before you rotate though, otherwise you run the risk of your hip turning too much too far over before your leg has actually got in the air and you sorta get your wires crossed - kicking over the chair like Shin said will help with that

also @exclamatio has a million and one drills for that sorta thing

 

[Monte Moku]

Yeah at begining of thread.

I wouldnt worry about your muscles being the problem. Infact trying to do any technique strong and muscle through it tends to be the root of the problem.

If you cant do it slow you cant do it fast.

If you cant do it soft you cant do it hard

Correct technique brings power. If you golf for example you dont need to swing hard, just correctly to hit it far. Same concept.

Try what i said lightly.

Something as simple as kicking over a chair or what not will help you kick through rather than too.

Oh yeah definitely, I mainly took up weightlifting because I feel like my supporting muscles are weak, causing balance issues. My coach has been emphasizing going light and doing high repetition drills, as well as doing really light sparring with a focus on activity and footwork. I haven't heard of that drill with the chair before, I am going to try that. Thank you for helpful words and advice!!

Yah, over rotating is a very 'American Muay Thai' thing - very easy to do especially when you start getting told to turn your hip over by pretty much everyone, which isn't bad advice it's just not always helpful for everyone.

Make sure that your knee is up before you rotate though, otherwise you run the risk of your hip turning too much too far over before your leg has actually got in the air and you sorta get your wires crossed - kicking over the chair like Shin said will help with that

also @exclamatio has a million and one drills for that sorta thing

I tried what you were saying with the timing of the hip turn and it felt much better! I felt a lot more balanced turning my hips and my leg felt like it pushed through the bag a bit more. I feel like it is much easier for me to kick on pads though, when I kick the heavy bag a lot, I feel like I end up messing up my form a lot more often. That could very well be a mental thing though. Thank you for the continually great advice! Going to put any updates to rest for some time, hopefully the next one will impress y'all a bit haha

 

[shincheckin]

Oh yeah definitely, I mainly took up weightlifting because I feel like my supporting muscles are weak, causing balance issues. My coach has been emphasizing going light and doing high repetition drills, as well as doing really light sparring with a focus on activity and footwork. I haven't heard of that drill with the chair before, I am going to try that. Thank you for helpful words and advice!!



I tried what you were saying with the timing of the hip turn and it felt much better! I felt a lot more balanced turning my hips and my leg felt like it pushed through the bag a bit more. I feel like it is much easier for me to kick on pads though, when I kick the heavy bag a lot, I feel like I end up messing up my form a lot more often. That could very well be a mental thing though. Thank you for the continually great advice! Going to put any updates to rest for some time, hopefully the next one will impress y'all a bit haha

what andy mentioned regarding over rotating the hips is very true, and very american. Its pretty much the standard way of teaching the MT kick in the US, and how its been done by the majority of people here. Until maybe about 10 years ago, thanks to the internet, information has been trickling down this way.

Its all one motion man. If you ever played baseball, to swing the bat correctly, its step, hips, swing. The MT kick is going to be, step, swing, hips.

Regarding kicking over a chair, it doesnt need to be very high. Many people make the mistake of kicking over something tall. I wouldnt even aim for something at your hip level. Something like your thigh level. Kick over a bucket, or stool, or what not. This will make it easier to do the motions correctly, rather then "reaching" for a higher kick, which can throw everything off.