Rewatch Sakuraba vs. Newton: the myth (it isn’t an all-time great fight).

[panem-et-circenses]

Agreeing to only grapple doesn't make it any less of an MMA fight. It was fought under MMA rules, MMA judges, MMA ref, and in an MMA organization.

Would you say the same if Izzy and Pereira made an agreement to only strike? Should that count as an exhibition, since it's really more of a kickboxing match?

This is a bad argument.

Agreeing to strike is inherently different than agreeing not to strike, for a bunch of obvious reasons.

It was fought under MMA rules, MMA judges, MMA ref, and in an MMA organization.

Early Pride had fake fights that aren’t argued over. The commentators called them as though they were real, in a promotion that had real fights (some of the best fights of all-time), and judges sat ringside.

 

[Nathan LaMontagne]

Oh ffs…I know Saku is the GOAT because people on here have spent the past week trying to diminish his credibility.

Imagine being so good at being an underdog that people think your fights are fixed and that your fights suck in 2023 because you could beat Gracie black belts without ever throwing a strike. Sakuraba is literally responsible for the how competitive grappling has evolved today, people are using all of his techniques and hiding behind the Gracie name.

Preach Soul Brotha.
Truer words were never spoken.

It's the 3rd great BJJ heist.

First they stole from Judo.
Then stole from Luta Livre
Then stole from Sakuraba himself.

Coincidentally, the Gracie's as a whole lost to all three... Embarrassingly

They really could work on Kimura (Ude Garami defense.)

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

I've always considered it the grappling equivalent of guys swing haymakers.

Exciting in a sense (it might hook some new fans), but not supremely technical and not at all an example of the best of MMA grappling.

Maia's best performances, Khabib's combination of wrestling and control/GNP, GSP's TD clinics in open space, etc...are examples of the best.

 

[JohnMandick]

Fight have to be viewed in the context of the times.

And at that time, it was an epic grappling match.

If you were a mma fan at the time, this isn't even debatable.

 

[Lee_]

Great grappling match, masterful.

 

[The XL]

There is a good chance that fight was a work. Not a popular opinion to state around here, but all the works that Pride had and may have had takes some of the luster off of the organization

 

[EndlessCritic]

Nascimento vs Motoya
Vogel vs Oullet
Diamond vs Mitchell

These fights are examples of great grappling in MMA.

 

[Dr Fong]

There is a good chance that fight was a work. Not a popular opinion to state around here, but all the works that Pride had and may have had takes some of the luster off of the organization

It's not an unpopular opinion at all to cast doubt on any Pride fight. At the time, this is all that UFC fanboys did and there were a lot more UFC fanboys than Pride fanboys.

There is no doubt that Pride stained itself with some works but there just doesn't appear to be much evidence or logic that Sakuraba had worked fights. This is the exception.

The thing that disrupts the tinfoil narrative is how many losses Sakuraba took and also how well he performed in some of those losses. Plus the Gracie fights - you would have to be a serious tinfoiler to think the Gracies of all people would have thrown fights.

Why would Pride rig some fights for Sak and then throw him to the wolves repeatedly? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Plus you have the Guy Mezger situation where Pride rigged it the good ol' fashioned Merican way by just having sketchy judging, not an actual worked fight.

 

[checktheknuckles]

It looked like they agreed to a grappling match to be honest. Both were attempting to win just without the whole... knocking each other out stuff lmao.

That shit is just for meat heads.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Agreeing to strike is inherently different than agreeing not to strike, for a bunch of obvious reasons.



Early Pride had fake fights that aren’t argued over. The commentators called them as though they were real, in a promotion that had real fights (some of the best fights of all-time), and judges sat ringside.

Having fixed fights doesn't mean that this is any less of a real fight.

And you say striking only is different for a "bunch of obvious reasons" but then don't actually list any of them.

MMA is not kickboxing, so what's the difference, exactly? Why does it matter if they agreed to only grapple or not? Do you have a shred of evidence the fight was fixed?

No?

Then please kindly fuck off. You're making a lot of accusations without any evidence, and your argument doesn't make any sense.

 

[EndlessCritic]

And you say striking only is different for a "bunch of obvious reasons" but then don't actually list any of them.

Perhaps you can read this article between Tristar teammates explaining why they wouldn't fight each other. GSP's quotes are highly relevant:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spo...-weigh-in-on-fighting-friends/article6361801/

"I don't want to fight him. We fight every day in the gym ... there's a lot of opponents, there are different weight classes," St-Pierre said prior to the Seattle fight.

The 31-year-old champion has always made it clear that he draws the line at fighting training partners. Otherwise he would be signing up to hurt a friend.

"So let's say I'm mounted, on top of my friend, and it's time to land this last big elbow that will probably make a scar in the middle of his forehead and knock him out cold and cause him brain damage," St-Pierre said by way of explanation, drawing laughs during a fan question-and-answer session before UFC 105 in November 2009 in Manchester, England.

"No I'm telling it like it is, if he's my friend, I'm going to think twice before I do it. I won't be able to do that to a friend. So that's the reason why I will never fight a friend. I know a lot of fighters who will disagree with me, but me that's my personal belief."



What does GSP mean when he says "We fight every day in the gym?", yet he says he would not fight a training partner? Are these contradictory statements? Of course not.

A sparring session in the gym or a grappling match, are not fights. In a fight, there is a jeopardy of the parties trying to hurt each other. As shitty as Ngannou/Lewis was, that jeopardy at least existed. Sakuraba/Newton fails that test.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Let me start by saying Sakuraba is one of my favorite fighters. Like a lot of people pre-TUF, he was one of the fighters I was drawn to, for a bunch of different reasons, including his strength of schedule, personality and quality of his fights (overall). Sakuraba-Newton was not an MMA fight. At the very least, considering all we know about fighting many years later, it’s clear that an agreement was made to not strike on the ground.

Both fighters pull punches, and no significant strikes are landed on the feet or ground, leading to some grappling sequences that are on par with a flow-roll. Someone brought up Rampage-Saku being an example of a ‘fake fight’ (they rewatched it and don’t say that anymore), which I didn’t agree with, but it’s clear that Newton-Saku is the example of a ‘fake’ MMA bout. Like some Rizin matches, it would be entered into the Sherdog database as an exhibition.

You can watch for yourself above. If the fight happened in 2023, it would be red flagged, both fighters would be suspended and Sherdog would go crazy. Within its proper context — does it really matter? No, not really. But I still see it being referenced today as an example of great grappling in an MMA bout. It isn’t that.

That happened a lot in early Pride. Yes, Saku Newton is a grappling match. Anyone who says otherwise is a Pride hipster.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Both are, Saku vs Newton for the time of the fight is one of the best grappling exchanges you will find

Can we agree though that Saku and Newton were the best grapplers in MMA pre-2000 ish (possibly even after).

 

[JustforBROCK]

Sakaraba is one of the biggest scams in MMA IMO.

 

[Aluminati]

I used to think Carlos Newton was Vitor Belfort except he had dreads for a while

I thought he was Mario Van Peebles.

 

[B0l0joe]

I don’t think there was an official agreement. It was just the style they both used and they just flowed with it. I remember Saku cracking Newton with a big right when In the guard so it definitely wasn’t just a flow roll.

 

[Royce's Gi]

Gentlemen's agreement.

Still one of the best grappling exchanges you will find.

 

[Royce's Gi]

I thought he was Mario Van Peebles.

I thought he was Morgan Von Peoples Gooding III