Rewatch Sakuraba vs. Newton: the myth (it isn’t an all-time great fight).

[panem-et-circenses]

Honestly, I always chalked this up to miscommunication.

If UFC folded and years later a fighter causally mentioned that Dana told them if they fought in a fun but stupid way and lost they'd earn $50k for FOTN, fans might call that suspicious too.

Now obviously Dana White wouldn't say "go ahead and fight hard and stupid", but that's where the miscommunication comes into play.

IMO no one in the game actually believes Sakakibara was asking Rampage to throw the fight, except a few fans trying too hard to find conspiracies.

As we have seen with the insider betting scandal, there is a lot of cross pollination, and fighters have definitely agreed to ‘bang’ during their fights (something that would happen publicly a lot more during the TUF era, imo). Taking away punching, GNP in this fight, is different than, say, agreeing to trade punches all night. Is the former wrong? I think so. But it isn’t the same as agreeing not to strike.

I didn’t agree that Rampage-Saku was fixed. Someone said Randleman-Saku was weird, too. Haven’t gone back in order to check.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Let me start by saying Sakuraba is one of my favorite fighters. Like a lot of people pre-TUF, he was one of the fighters I was drawn to, for a bunch of different reasons, including his strength of schedule, personality and quality of his fights (overall). Sakuraba-Newton was not an MMA fight. At the very least, considering all we know about fighting many years later, it’s clear that an agreement was made to not strike on the ground.

Both fighters pull punches, and no significant strikes are landed on the feet or ground, leading to some grappling sequences that are on par with a flow-roll. Someone brought up Rampage-Saku being an example of a ‘fake fight’ (they rewatched it and don’t say that anymore), which I didn’t agree with, but it’s clear that Newton-Saku is the example of a ‘fake’ MMA bout. Like some Rizin matches, it would be entered into the Sherdog database as an exhibition.

You can watch for yourself above. If the fight happened in 2023, it would be red flagged, both fighters would be suspended and Sherdog would go crazy. Within its proper context — does it really matter? No, not really. But I still see it being referenced today as an example of great grappling in an MMA bout. It isn’t that.

You are completely correct in everything you've stated.

The mythology surrounding this "fight" is absurd. It is a low intensity flow roll, which is not even particularly technical. The fact that anyone considers it a good fight or display of grappling is utterly insane.

 

[JustBleed69]

I've never seen this fight and never heard of it being mentioned as a great fight, but have been a die hard since the late 90s.

Probably one of those "sherdog only" great fights.

 

[TIMELESS TRUTH]

Newton had some of my favorite fights ever...
Vs Pele
Vs Hughes
Vs Hendo
Vs Silva
But Newton vs Saku is halfway a grappling match, and I can see how normies could be bored by it and ignore it's meager moments of brilliance.

 

[Brom Bones]

Let me start by saying Sakuraba is one of my favorite fighters. Like a lot of people pre-TUF, he was one of the fighters I was drawn to, for a bunch of different reasons, including his strength of schedule, personality and quality of his fights (overall). Sakuraba-Newton was not an MMA fight. At the very least, considering all we know about fighting many years later, it’s clear that an agreement was made to not strike on the ground.

Both fighters pull punches, and no significant strikes are landed on the feet or ground, leading to some grappling sequences that are on par with a flow-roll. Someone brought up Rampage-Saku being an example of a ‘fake fight’ (they rewatched it and don’t say that anymore), which I didn’t agree with, but it’s clear that Newton-Saku is the example of a ‘fake’ MMA bout. Like some Rizin matches, it would be entered into the Sherdog database as an exhibition.

You can watch for yourself above. If the fight happened in 2023, it would be red flagged, both fighters would be suspended and Sherdog would go crazy. Within its proper context — does it really matter? No, not really. But I still see it being referenced today as an example of great grappling in an MMA bout. It isn’t that.

Are you trying to be "edgy"? This is a very shitty take. Yes, it's obvious that they had some sort of agreement not to strike. As long as this wasn't a scripted work, I'm fine with that. The match was a dope exhibition of grappling. Stop trying to be a contrarian.

Saku vs Tiger White was pretty much the same thing.

 

[mirko>anyone]

Read the op and rewatch the fight. Some people want to hold onto the myth, I understand, but view it in 2023 with the post-Pride files in mind.

So out of its context? That’s not how it works. It was an MMA landmark when it happened, much like Gracie subbing bigger guys like Severn or Shamrock. The fact that someone like Jacare or Maia exemplify superior BJJ doesn’t reduce the merit of events that paved the way for present day excellence. There is no “myth”. But enjoy your poorly received thread. I’m out.

 

[Taric]

Let me start by saying Sakuraba is one of my favorite fighters. Like a lot of people pre-TUF, he was one of the fighters I was drawn to, for a bunch of different reasons, including his strength of schedule, personality and quality of his fights (overall). Sakuraba-Newton was not an MMA fight. At the very least, considering all we know about fighting many years later, it’s clear that an agreement was made to not strike on the ground.

Both fighters pull punches, and no significant strikes are landed on the feet or ground, leading to some grappling sequences that are on par with a flow-roll. Someone brought up Rampage-Saku being an example of a ‘fake fight’ (they rewatched it and don’t say that anymore), which I didn’t agree with, but it’s clear that Newton-Saku is the example of a ‘fake’ MMA bout. Like some Rizin matches, it would be entered into the Sherdog database as an exhibition.

You can watch for yourself above. If the fight happened in 2023, it would be red flagged, both fighters would be suspended and Sherdog would go crazy. Within its proper context — does it really matter? No, not really. But I still see it being referenced today as an example of great grappling in an MMA bout. It isn’t that.

Sakuraba and Newton were pure grapplers that had both fought in MMA for like a year before fighting each other, and you're confused why the fight looked like a grappling match?... it was their preferred methods of attack. All of their fights before this had almost no striking as well.

Newton and Hughes fought for 7 minutes and landed like a dozen strikes, standing and ground, combined in the UFC. Is that fight a work? Grapplers grapple.

Sometimes you people are such simpletons.

 

[Ken Fresno]

You are completely correct in everything you've stated.

The mythology surrounding this "fight" is absurd. It is a low intensity flow roll, which is not even particularly technical. The fact that anyone considers it a good fight or display of grappling is utterly insane.

And beyond that, it seems like a reasonable time to discuss what classifies as a “fake fight” when this performance would have gotten these 2 bounced from the PFL.

 

[BearGrounds]

It's unfortunate that you failed to appreciate the entire spirit of the match, which was that of honor and mutual respect.

They decided, as gentleman, to have somewhat of a unique grappling contest between themselves for a bit, and eventually committed to throwing a bad intentioned strike here and there to create openings. The Japanese crowd loved it from bell to bell.

It is an all time great, and a bit of a stand alone fight for the reasons mentioned. You should watch it again sometime without trying to hold to such a rigid standard - there wasn't anything fake about it.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Are you trying to be "edgy"?

I made a post about a historic fight in the context of three or so Sakuraba threads on the 1st page.

Yes, it's obvious that they had some sort of agreement not to strike

Yeah, you’re kind of making my point.

As long as this wasn't a scripted work

Some Rings matches look pretty good, too. I have no idea about agreements, who came to who, etc., yet we do know such actions occurred. Watch the early Pride events; there were ‘fake’ fights, and nobody argues otherwise, mostly because nobody cares about those specific fighters. Saku is a HoFamer/fan favorite (again, one of my favs) so it’s a bit taboo and people get upset.

So out of its context?

I addressed that point. People are applying it to the modern eras where it doesn’t fit.

But enjoy your poorly received thread. I’m out.

If people watch, or rewatch, the Saku-Newton fight and still believe, it’s on them, really. It doesn’t matter all that much, either. It’s just a topic of discussion, and there doesn’t seem to be much big news atm.

Sometimes you people are such simpletons.

You are part of this crowd.

Newton and Hughes fought for 7 minutes and landed like a dozen strikes, standing and ground, combined in the UFC. Is that fight a work?

How one can compare the two fights is beyond me.

 

[Brom Bones]

I made a post about a historic fight in the context of three or so Sakuraba threads on the 1st page.



Yeah, you’re kind of making my point.



Some Rings matches look pretty good, too. I have no idea about agreements, who came to who, etc., yet we do know such actions occurred. Watch the early Pride events; there were ‘fake’ fights, and nobody argues otherwise, mostly because nobody cares about those specific fighters. Saku is a HoFamer/fan favorite (again, one of my favs) so it’s a bit taboo and people get upset.



I addressed that point. People are applying it to the modern eras where it doesn’t fit.



If people watch, or rewatch, the Saku-Newton fight and still believe, it’s on them, really. It doesn’t matter all that much, either. It’s just a topic of discussion, and there doesn’t seem to be much big news atm.



You are part of this crowd.



How one can compare the two fights is beyond me.

Just because 2 people agree to not strike, doesn't make it "not a great fight." No, it was a great fight. Just one where they agreed not to strike. Same as 2 guys agreeing to "stand and bang." Forrest vs Bonnar was a great fight. It wasn't very technical and there was very little ground fighting, but an entertaining scrap nonetheless. Saku vs Newton is an all time great, but that's just my opinion. I don't knock it at all for having no striking. It's got great grappling. End of story.

 

[Pakman]

TS just watched Newton vs Saku for the first time in 2023 and is giving us a lecture on why it's not an all time great.

Shut up man.

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

 

[panem-et-circenses]

 

[SeattleFightFan]

As we have seen with the insider betting scandal, there is a lot of cross pollination, and fighters have definitely agreed to ‘bang’ during their fights (something that would happen publicly a lot more during the TUF era, imo). Taking away punching, GNP in this fight, is different than, say, agreeing to trade punches all night. Is the former wrong? I think so. But it isn’t the same as agreeing not to strike.

I didn’t agree that Rampage-Saku was fixed. Someone said Randleman-Saku was weird, too. Haven’t gone back in order to check.

I agree with what you said. I wasn't comparing Rampage v Saku with Saku v Newton, just commenting on Rampage's comments about getting a bonus if the fight doesn't go to decision, and fans reactions to said comments.

Now that we agree, I'll add a few more thoughts, that are just thoughts on the topic and not me debating you.

There have been quite a few fights where "gentlemen's agreements" existed in the history of MMA. Most if not all were before the modern era (e.g. <2005). Although it's always been "frowned upon", I would say it was a different era back then, and people were a little more understanding then of the challenges fewer fighters, and eventually having to fight a friend, and some fighters' reluctance to do so.

Certainly no one was suspended over it, like the recent Schulte v Manfio bout (which apparently didn't have a "gentlemen's agreements", but because it was a lackluster bout between training partners, pissed off the promotion). And hey, I get that; PFL wants to be not only innocent of collision above suspicion (something our current SCOTUS could learn from, heh).

But I also get that in 2002 or so, when two fighters agreed to be grapple heavy, although no one celebrated it (I used the term "frowned upon" earlier), they were at least more understanding about it. Both fans reactions can be correct, in each of their eras.

 

[Deleted member 359865]

Oh ffs…I know Saku is the GOAT because people on here have spent the past week trying to diminish his credibility.

Imagine being so good at being an underdog that people think your fights are fixed and that your fights suck in 2023 because you could beat Gracie black belts without ever throwing a strike. Sakuraba is literally responsible for the how competitive grappling has evolved today, people are using all of his techniques and hiding behind the Gracie name.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

something our current SCOTUS could learn from

We might need you in the war room

 

[Sivo The Ram]

the whole "gentlemans agreement" thing has always sounded like such bullshit. there's a 0.1% chance that they spoke before hand and went hey, lets not hit each other! the fact is they did throw strikes. the only reason people think like ts is because of what the commentators said, which they would have absolutely no information on. they werent even in japan to call the fights live. i think its just a fight between two young grapplers, and it was kinda like "hey this guy thinks he's gonna out grapple me, i'll show him."

 

[panem-et-circenses]

the whole "gentlemans agreement" thing has always sounded like such bullshit. there's a 0.1% chance that they spoke before hand and went hey, lets not hit each other! the fact is they did throw strikes. the only reason people think like ts is because of what the commentators said, which they would have absolutely no information on. they werent even in japan to call the fights live. i think its just a fight between two young grapplers, and it was kinda like "hey this guy thinks he's gonna out grapple me, i'll show him."

I don’t think we’ll ever know the full story. What occurred during the match could have only come from some kind of agreement; they literally pull their punches, and it doesn’t resemble anything previous to their bout, or after, in terms of action and grappling.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Agreeing to only grapple doesn't make it any less of an MMA fight. It was fought under MMA rules, MMA judges, MMA ref, and in an MMA organization.

Would you say the same if Izzy and Pereira made an agreement to only strike? Should that count as an exhibition, since it's really more of a kickboxing match?

This is a bad argument.