Should attacking the back of the knees be illegal Tani Otoshi vid

[SHAOLINMONK420]

Tani otoshi in Depth - YouTube

this guy thinks they are worse than covid

it is a very effective technique btw variants or some techniques work with no gi

i realize hes a high ranking belt in the video so no offense

 

[Peteyandjia]

Well it’s on Danaher’s short list of banned techniques in his dojo, and that guy seems to know a thing or two.

It makes sense to me though. Unlike many other takedowns, like say, Osoto Gari, where you can control almost completely the exact severity of the landing — you can set someone down gentle as a feather, or mega smash them through the floor — Tani Otoshi is one of those techniques where it doesn’t really matter how slick & smooth your execution of the technique is, if your opponent reacts the wrong way, their leg is going to get snapped on the way down. The landing is just very uncontrolled, it’s free falling bodyweight. Which is the #1 way most people get truly hurt on the mats. It’s just not worth it, especially since there are so many other safer takedowns to practice which are just as effective.

 

[RJ Green]

Tani otoshi has the same problem as Kani Basami where Tori can jump into the knee or bind the ankle. If there's also a size discrepancy then uke is much more likely to be injured.

Beyond that, beginners rely on this throw since they haven't developed proper kazushi and are content to sit down and pull to get the throw. It's tough for folks to defend until they're past citrus belt. By then, they'll have enough command of positioning and grip to be able to uchimata or ouchigari the bejesus out of tori as a counter.

It's a good throw than can allow bad habits and stunt a good Judoka's development. Over-relying on sacrifice throws means underdeveloping kazushi.

It's like making pasta without boiling the water - it might be edible, but anybody with developed taste will tell you how you're missing the point.

 

[QingTian]

Tani Otoshi is one of those techniques where it doesn’t really matter how slick & smooth your execution of the technique is, if your opponent reacts the wrong way, their leg is going to get snapped on the way down.

Not true, this only happens when you didn't have control over uke and made a hail mary type move. The problem is that the skill to use sacrifice throws correctly doesn't come until after black belt, IMO. Think of all the back flop tomoenage attempts. No, like all throws kuzushi and control need to be established before actually throwing. Just sacrifice throws let you look like you're throwing a bit even if you do it wrong even though you're really just dragging uke down.

With correct control and timing you should be able to do tani otoshi even in slow motion if you wanted to.

 

[backlight]

Not true, this only happens when you didn't have control over uke and made a hail mary type move

Disagree, if uke moves the near foot back and plants it, bad things can happen. The incidence of injury for tani otoshi is greater than e.g. tai otoshi (locking out uke's far knee), or ippon seoi (locking out uke's elbow)

The problem is that the skill to use sacrifice throws correctly doesn't come until after black belt, IMO.

Also disagree. The kids I coach develop at least one sutemi waza by early teens (after 5+ years of judo) so they have something to mix things up with, and can apply this technique at high level competitions (national level, at least low level international level). And I don't mean crappy pull-them-onto-your-chest-nage or slip-off-the-side-sumi-gaeshi.

 

[Badger67]

Literally have never seen someone injured from this move (judo blue belt). Not saying it hasn't happened at super high level but...have yet to see it. Seen more injuries off arm throws from people resisting too much and face/head planting.
\Shrugs/

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

I've seen this injury a bunch of times and unfortunately inflicted it myself once. For BJJ I would basically never teach it.

Interesting how many of these competition ones look more like what a I would consider a step around/Polish throw where the attacking foot plants and bends the near leg over it instead of trying to reach the far one. Would that arguably be a sukui nage variation if you were talking Judo? Anyway, much better and safer throw to teach for a similar position IMO.

 

[backlight]

Interesting how many of these competition ones look more like what a I would consider a step around/Polish throw where the attacking foot plants and bends the near leg over it instead of trying to reach the far one. Would that arguably be a sukui nage variation if you were talking Judo? Anyway, much better and safer throw to teach for a similar position IMO.

Yeah a lot of them are more sukui nage-ish (no scoop though), where the throw is backwards over the hip/thigh. Some of the throws in that vid are actually nidan kosoto. Either would definitely be safer.

 

[RJ Green]

Literally have never seen someone injured from this move (judo blue belt). Not saying it hasn't happened at super high level but...have yet to see it. Seen more injuries off arm throws from people resisting too much and face/head planting.
\Shrugs/

literally have seen two broken legs (black belt in judo)

 

[QingTian]

Disagree, if uke moves the near foot back and plants it, bad things can happen. The incidence of injury for tani otoshi is greater than e.g. tai otoshi (locking out uke's far knee), or ippon seoi (locking out uke's elbow)



Also disagree. The kids I coach develop at least one sutemi waza by early teens (after 5+ years of judo) so they have something to mix things up with, and can apply this technique at high level competitions (national level, at least low level international level). And I don't mean crappy pull-them-onto-your-chest-nage or slip-off-the-side-sumi-gaeshi.

If uke can move his near foot back, then you did not have full control.

Similarly, your kids do not have full control in their throws even if they looked like it. This is not an insult to your kids. I just question that that level of skill can happen that young. By full control I mean you can apply kuzushi to the point where uke has no chance to escape even if you don't throw. Or maybe a better way to put it, you can throw without actually finishing. Like, against a weak player sometimes I would just throw with osoto without actually sweeping. If you can do that, no reason why you cannot avoid falling on uke for tani otoshi. Otherwise you didn't really get uke over his heel, did you?

 

[backlight]

By full control I mean you can apply kuzushi to the point where uke has no chance to escape even if you don't throw.

In shiai? Nobody is 100% with their techniques, not even Ono from the current batch. Otherwise, are we talking uchikomi, nagekomi, kata randori, etc? My measure is ability to apply it successfully at a high level in a dynamic situation.

I mean, look at this scrub, he's clearly not got full control:

 

[QingTian]

The post was about whether it was possible at all, so no need to appeal to a higher authority with world level Judo. Which, in that case competitors know and accept the risks, and for the most part are skilled enough not to be injured from tani otoshi.

But I wouldn't teach tani otoshi to beginners either and certainly not to kids.

 

[QingTian]

Alright, just watched the vid... that was more of a shitty yoko otoshi than a shitty tani otoshi

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

If executed as a simple back fall, most probably will include a "sitting on the knee" motion and dislocate.

This throw should be executed in a "wrestling" fashion, using hips to elevate and then throw in back arching motion.

 

[Badger67]

literally have seen two broken legs (black belt in judo)

Watched my coach nearly lose a toe from a foot sweep.
I never said shit wont happen, but this is low on the totem in my experience wrestling/judo lol

 

[RJ Green]

The post was about whether it was possible at all, so no need to appeal to a higher authority with world level Judo. Which, in that case competitors know and accept the risks, and for the most part are skilled enough not to be injured from tani otoshi.

But I wouldn't teach tani otoshi to beginners either and certainly not to kids.

what color is this dress

 

[CFGroup]

Hitachi Sensei makes really good points in the clip.

there's much better options at a higher level from a defensive response.

It's kinda targeting the clip to random YouTube babies who would go out and pull it on their white belt Randori partner.

the way he actually demonstrates it is much middleware through His with only enough backwards direction to take Uke's balance. With a skip step you can control the throw slowly the whole way.

KBI in NYC is a great school founded by Shinaro's dad who trained at The Kodokan and under Obama Sensei, the founder of Kyokushin. If you love pawing in pajamas they are the bomb!

 

[Normot]

I have only seen someone do it ~5 times and I have seen two knees blow out. People can argue it's safe all they want, I don't buy it.

Edit: Oops, idk why, I thought this was about flying scissors

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I haven't hurt anyone with it yet. I love tani otoshi following a faked forward throw.

 

[QingTian]

what color is this dress

IMO it's useful to distinguish throws, because the setup required could be very different even if the end result looks similar.