So now that they have been retired a good while: thoughts on Vitali and Wlad as fighters?

Vitali was a beast. Only 2 losses due to injury while being ahead on the scorecards. I always liked him more than Wlad, but Wlad has the better resume. Wlad is top 10 for me although I personally think Vitali was the better fighter.

Vitaly was caught doping as an amateur though ....
 
Maybe wlad but vitali?

His biggest moment is a stoppage loss

Even so, he had 11 defenses, 4 against undefeated fighters.

Joe Fraizer only had 4 defenses, Ali being the only undefeated fighter, who also then beat him twice (and some feel Ali also won the first fight). In addition to getting brutally destroyed by Foreman. And the people he defended against were blown up middleweights and light heavies. Even Ellis, who he beat for the vacant title had lost to Carter at middle weight.

Marciano had 6 defenses, and tho undefeated, his record is padded with more bums than any other. Even with his defenses Charles and Walcott were way past it, both had lost 2 just a couple fights prior. People like them and Moore are "names", but even Archie was 40ish with over 150 fights. Walcott was 50-18 lol. He only won a title and defended vs the same person (Charles). Yet people like to remember Marciano and the era fondly.. but yea, it is the weakest division of all time.

Even Charles won the vacant title from Walcott, and then defended it vs the bum of the month club, outside of Louis.

I mean, do people give Floyd a bunch of credit for beating a master, sneaky, and skilled fighter like Augustus or beating faded multi division champs like Gatti? No because Augustus has a shit record, and Gatti was old and faded. So these fighters from past generations should not get the nostalgia factor to make their records something they aren't.

Ali, Fraizer, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Louis ALL have worse loses. Vitali's 2 loses were a freak injury (which lasted for years and caused a temporary retirement), and a cut in a fight he was doing quite well in. And those aren't excuses for the losses, just putting them into context. Even Ali has lost a decision and been knocked down multiple times. Vitali has the best KO% of HW champions and was never knocked down in professional boxing (he was in kickboxing). Couple that with 11 title defenses of a legit belt. I think he has a VERY strong case.
 
Even so, he had 11 defenses, 4 against undefeated fighters.

Joe Fraizer only had 4 defenses, Ali being the only undefeated fighter, who also then beat him twice (and some feel Ali also won the first fight). In addition to getting brutally destroyed by Foreman. And the people he defended against were blown up middleweights and light heavies. Even Ellis, who he beat for the vacant title had lost to Carter at middle weight.

Marciano had 6 defenses, and tho undefeated, his record is padded with more bums than any other. Even with his defenses Charles and Walcott were way past it, both had lost 2 just a couple fights prior. People like them and Moore are "names", but even Archie was 40ish with over 150 fights. Walcott was 50-18 lol. He only won a title and defended vs the same person (Charles). Yet people like to remember Marciano and the era fondly.. but yea, it is the weakest division of all time.

Even Charles won the vacant title from Walcott, and then defended it vs the bum of the month club, outside of Louis.

I mean, do people give Floyd a bunch of credit for beating a master, sneaky, and skilled fighter like Augustus or beating faded multi division champs like Gatti? No because Augustus has a shit record, and Gatti was old and faded. So these fighters from past generations should not get the nostalgia factor to make their records something they aren't.

Ali, Fraizer, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Louis ALL have worse loses. Vitali's 2 loses were a freak injury (which lasted for years and caused a temporary retirement), and a cut in a fight he was doing quite well in. And those aren't excuses for the losses, just putting them into context. Even Ali has lost a decision and been knocked down multiple times. Vitali has the best KO% of HW champions and was never knocked down in professional boxing (he was in kickboxing). Couple that with 11 title defenses of a legit belt. I think he has a VERY strong case.
Very strong case for what?

He certainly does not have a better resume than ali,louis,lewis,foreman,holmes

He might have a better resume than frazier but even that is arguable. What is Vitali’s best win even? Sam Peter?

He does not have a better resume than Marciano’s who’s resume is thin but Vitali’s is thinner imo. Seriously what are Vitali’s three best wins? Peter, Arreola and....Kirk Johnson?
 
Very strong case for what?

He certainly does not have a better resume than ali,louis,lewis,foreman,holmes

He might have a better resume than frazier but even that is arguable. What is Vitali’s best win even? Sam Peter?

He does not have a better resume than Marciano’s who’s resume is thin but Vitali’s is thinner imo. Seriously what are Vitali’s three best wins? Peter, Arreola and....Kirk Johnson?

I would say all those wins are just as good, not to mention Adamek (multi division champ), Solis (undefeated at the time and olympic gold medal), among other good wins.

Which of Marciano's wins are better than Vitali's you listed and I just did? 37 year old Louis? Maybe... Tho he was only fighting cause he owed the IRS money. I am going to laugh if you say Walcott tho.
 
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Both great fighters that turned in to cans the moment they lost!
 
Are we whitewashing?



He could have danced to victory
 
Time will be more generous to both. It's almost like we punished the both of them for being so much better than everyone else. If the HW division had a barely clear cut number 1 and there was a couple Americans who jockeyed for the title and number 1 distinction over the past 15 years, people might have fonder memories.

Wlad is an all time great, probably at the bottom of a Top 10. Vitali was the most talented of the early to late 2000's. Kinda wish Vitali was still fighting when Wlad lost to Fury just so he could avenge another of Wlad's losses.
 
and he had immediate surgery on that shoulder.

Not saying it wasnt injured. I’m questioning some of the statements in this thread that he had the greatest fighting spirit...
 
I would say all those wins are just as good, not to mention Adamek (multi division champ), Solis (undefeated at the time and olympic gold medal), among other good wins.

Which of Marciano's wins are better than Vitali's you listed and I just did? 37 year old Louis? Maybe... Tho he was only fighting cause he owed the IRS money. I am going to laugh if you say Walcott tho.
Why? Do you think Walcott sucked or something?

And i feel pretty comfortable saying that even a really old Moore/Charles/Louis were better than Kirk Johnson and Chris Arreola.

La Starza and Savold were pretty decent too.
 
Wlad - dominant but forgettable.

The (great) fights that spring to mind for both brothers are their losses (AJ and Lewis).
 
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Later wlad fixed some glaring holes but he alway backed straight up, chin up.

Vitali’s greatest accomplishment was a loss. Those fighters worry me.

I think a guy with enough size, timing and power like Lewis gets to Steward Wlad, but then again, Lewis is top 5 material.

Vitali gets beaten by a handful. Lewis is certainly one of them, out of shape or not.
 
Wlad had the better resume, Vitali was the better fighter. The majority of their fights were very boring but they both had unique and effective styles. Definitely up there with the best of all time and I'd put Wlad in top 10 heavyweights at his best. The one thing you can't say about these guys is that they ducked other fighters. They fought anybody and everybody they could, having no problem going to their opponents backyards. I respect the hell out of that and how classy they both come off in interviews.

Both top 10. Obviously. If they were black there would be no discussion.

Keep that shit out of the Boxing Forum.
 
Why? Do you think Walcott sucked or something?

And i feel pretty comfortable saying that even a really old Moore/Charles/Louis were better than Kirk Johnson and Chris Arreola.

La Starza and Savold were pretty decent too.

I never said Walcott was bad, just he is overrated by the nostalgia factor.

I would agree that Louis and them are better overall, but given where they were in their careers, I feel young, undefeated fighters, #1 contenders are better than already retired fighters who are only fighting because they owe a shit ton of money to the IRS... or fighters that are 40 with over 150 fights who started out as middleweight, and even lost to Burley who was mostly a welterweight. We can agree to disagree on that.

I just don't see how you can credit a great win for beating Moore, but not even include a fighter like Adamek for notable wins for Vitali. "Oh, Vitali only got beaten by Lewis" "Oh I think Archie Moore is a great win"
 
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Vitali was pretty great fighter. I think he would definitely beat AJ, Wilder, Fury and Ruiz. If he were young nowadays he could for sure become the Undisputed Champion.
 
Wlad is EASILY in the top 10 HWs. Not only is his resume enough to get him in, but in terms of hypothetical match ups, I am picking him vs a lot of people that others would want to rank higher.

Better resume than Smoking Joe, and would lay him out.

Vitali is a great fighter, but his resume is lacking due to injury/inactivity. I still think one could make the argument tho. He has 45 fights, with a number of title defenses (11, if I am not mistaken). Even his record is better than someone like Fraizer's, and would knock him out also.

I would put Ali, Lewis, Louis, and Foreman ahead of them, but then both Wlad and Vitali have just as strong an argument as any other. Not to mention I would pick them over a lot of smaller fighters like Fraizer, Marciano, etc.

You're underestimating Frazier... I'm not saying who would win, and your argument in regards to the size difference is legit, plus Joe was very vulnerable due to his highly offensive style and could be hurt in the early going by boxers with a hard enough punch.

But the Frazier that beat Ali was a savage.
I think he outguns 1989-1991 Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe... And Lennox? Well, he had his hands full with Mercer.

1971 Frazier vs 1981 Holmes is a toss up.

Btw: Vitalis record being better than Joe's is arguable. Joe's win over Ali is that much worth more than everythings Vitali has done. He had his shot against a past-prime Lewis and failed.
 
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Even so, he had 11 defenses, 4 against undefeated fighters.

Joe Fraizer only had 4 defenses,

He was in a tougher era though.
Different circumstances make it difficult to compare boxers from different eras.

Holyfield also had merely 7 title defenses, because there were a Bowe and a Lewis around who wouldn't allow him to hold on to the titles longer.
 
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