Social Tennessee lawmakers pass bill to allow teachers to be armed

[Sinister]

Is that really the expectation here though? Do you not see it more as a deterrent than an actual force protection or front-line response to a shooting? I'd suspect the schools would still have a shelter-in-place policy and only allow the armed response from a teacher in a classroom that is actively being attacked. That would make much more sense to me instead of leaving them unarmed and vulnerable while hiding in their classroom.

I'd hope they'd supplement this with improved physical security to discourage/prevent entry from someone meaning to harm others.

Ths improved physical security should be the priority. And I dont even know that I'd agree that an armed teacher is actually a deterrent. It kind of seems to me that suicide by Cop is within the parameters of what school shooters accept will happen. They have attacked schools where armed security on the premises and I doubt they meticulously calculated where that security would be. I don't fully buy the "soft targets" argument with mass shooters. It seems they intend to get killed, and just do as much damage as possible on the way out.

Now, we can argue that them not knowing which teacher is armed, but that they can be adds another thing they have to factor in, but that just means their inevitable death might come a little faster. And I cant advocate for a gunfight in a classroom. I understand the idea, but gunfights are messy in reality, especially in an enclosed space.

 

[Scheme]

You want to put kids in a prison, while currently running around screaming that schools are indoctrinating kids.
What effect on a child's development do you think keeping them in a prison for 8 hours a day, for 12 years, would have?

Fall in line children!

I didn't say I wanted to put them in prison. I said I wanted the teachers to have a sealed box that unlocks when there is a school shooter so that they can defend themselves and the children.

 

[Sinister]

So since the police in Uvalde (and in those other situations you have in mind) were cowards you think a teacher already in the building would also fail to fight back if needed? Do you not think that an armed teacher in any of those situations would've been able to fight back (as the last line of defense) and put a stop to the killing?

I 100% believe more teachers than not would opt out of a gunfight as fast as people who spend the majority of their time training for gunfights.

 

[BudKing8806]

My favorite thing about Sherdog is even if you try to reduce something to the most easily understood example, there are people here dumb enough to somehow still not get the point. Here, let me spell it out for you.

No guns? No gun violence.

Some guns? Some gun violence.

Lots of guns? Lots of gun violence.

Compare The US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Four countries with similar cultures (apart from the gun glorification in the US), economies, and demographics, but far different gun ownership rates.

Firearms per Capita

US - 120.5
CA - 34.7
AU - 14.5
UK - 7

Gun Death Rates

US - 4.05 / 100,000
CA - 0.73 / 100,000
AU - 0.08 / 100,000
UK - 0.01 / 100,000

Wow what could the problem be? Impossible to say! Better add more guns to be on the safe side!



I swear this country has the dumbest fucking people on the planet.

You are correct about the last sentence there and that is also the problem. You says it's guns, I say the problem is having 350 million stupid fucks in the country.

 

[spamking]

Dude they dont even supply actual school supplies and we cap how much of their personal money spent on supplies teachers can write off on their taxes.

And that cap is extremely low . . . my wife often spends 2 or 3 times that amount each year.

 

[spamking]

I 100% believe more teachers than not would opt out of a gunfight as fast as people who spend the majority of their time training for gunfights.

If you're talking about them being part of a response team I'd agree. If you talking about them refusing to defend their classroom if armed I'd say that's definitely not correct.

 

[spamking]

Ths improved physical security should be the priority. And I dont even know that I'd agree that an armed teacher is actually a deterrent. It kind of seems to me that suicide by Cop is within the parameters of what school shooters accept will happen. They have attacked schools where armed security on the premises and I doubt they meticulously calculated where that security would be. I don't fully buy the "soft targets" argument with mass shooters. It seems they intend to get killed, and just do as much damage as possible on the way out.

Now, we can argue that them not knowing which teacher is armed, but that they can be adds another thing they have to factor in, but that just means their inevitable death might come a little faster. And I cant advocate for a gunfight in a classroom. I understand the idea, but gunfights are messy in reality, especially in an enclosed space.

I would hope that we could all agree that physical security should be a priority, but you have people on here complaining about schools becoming prisons so it's not likely.

I suspect that whether an armed teacher is a deterrent would greatly depend on the teacher and school itself. I don't doubt that suicide by cop/security guard/whatever armed person will still happen. Wasn't it proven that the Nashville school shooter purposefully avoided another location before shooting up that private school solely because of the location's physical security?

I'm not advocating for a gunfight in a classroom, but I am advocating for arming a teacher in that classroom to give them a fighting chance if the need arises to prevent entry and/or defend that classroom.

 

[spamking]

Every single teacher friend I talked to was against this, even years ago post Sandy Hook.

There are so many hurdles to this. Are the teacher carrying on their person? Is the gun being stored in a safe? What training do they have to take, how often r do they qualify? How does Law Enforcement responding to the scene know who is or isn’t supposed to be armed?

My wife teaches 3rd grade and I doubt she'd feel comfortable with it herself.

Wouldn't all of this be covered in their training and signed off on by the local authorities, etc.?

 

[spamking]

Can you imagine teachers clocking into work and going to their locker in the staffing room and equipping themselves with a modified Glock, decked out in school colors.

Gives new meaning to "you're getting the switch".

 

[Sinister]

If you're talking about them being part of a response team I'd agree. If you talking about them refusing to defend their classroom if armed I'd say that's definitely not correct.

I don't know if you're counting on protective instincts but teachers are not combat soldiers or trained officers. And I think counting on them to respond in ways trained officers have refused to is folly.

 

[spamking]

So we're taking away the rights of parents to know who has a gun around their kid.

You don't know that now when you're in Walmart.

 

[spamking]

I don't know if you're counting on protective instincts but teachers are not combat soldiers or trained officers. And I think counting on them to respond in ways trained officers have refused to is folly.

If you think a teacher (well most of them) wouldn't fight to the death to defend their kids you're not seeing the big picture. It's not about combat training. They'd respond exactly like most parents would in this situation. If we were left with no other choice but to defend a classroom of kids with a firearm that's exactly what most of us would do. There is no way I'd see any teacher or parent telling everyone to cower in the corner and hope for the best.

Just imagine how many lives could've been saved in any of the previous high-profile shootings if a teacher in a classroom that was attacked had been armed.

 

[spamking]

The people who see this as a "solution" to school shootings and not fucking crazy, are mentally ill.

That exactly how we feel about the rest of you guys who see it differently too . . . so glad we could all come to some agreement here.

 

[Sinister]

I would hope that we could all agree that physical security should be a priority, but you have people on here complaining about schools becoming prisons so it's not likely.

I suspect that whether an armed teacher is a deterrent would greatly depend on the teacher and school itself. I don't doubt that suicide by cop/security guard/whatever armed person will still happen. Wasn't it proven that the Nashville school shooter purposefully avoided another location before shooting up that private school solely because of the location's physical security?

I'm not advocating for a gunfight in a classroom, but I am advocating for arming a teacher in that classroom to give them a fighting chance if the need arises to prevent entry and/or defend that classroom.

I'm not 100% comfortable with physical security, either because I dislike the idea that a rogue State entity can barrier me from my child. One of the worst parts of the Uvalde case was how those parents were more confronted by police then the shooter was.

The statements about the Nashville shooter were indeed that Hale avoided another school because of "stronger security"...but that's as far as those details went. For all we know it could have been more magnetic doors or less points of entry with more eyes.

I dont think your heart is in the wrong place, but you're smart man. Advocating for a gun inside the classroom is absolutely advocating for a gunfight to take place in that classroom. That's an acceptable option for you and I do understand why. I just dont agree with that. I'd be looking at ways to add escape routes without them being points of entry. In my elementary school on Florida classroom were joined by small halls between them (where single bathrooms were) that had their own doors. So you could go in that hall and come out of another classroom. I always thought that was pretty smart. Mischievous kids used this feature to hide from teachers. Me, I was mischievous kids lol

 

[spamking]

When you pass a bill allowing teachers to be armed, you are suggesting they should be armed.

 

[spamking]

I'm not 100% comfortable with physical security, either because I dislike the idea that a rogue State entity can barrier me from my child. One of the worst parts of the Uvalde case was how those parents were more confronted by police then the shooter was.

The statements about the Nashville shooter were indeed that Hale avoided another school because of "stronger security"...but that's as far as those details went. For all we know it could have been more magnetic doors or less points of entry with more eyes.

I dont think your heart is in the wrong place, but you're smart man. Advocating for a gun inside the classroom is absolutely advocating for a gunfight to take place in that classroom. That's an acceptable option for you and I do understand why. I just dont agree with that. I'd be looking at ways to add escape routes without them being points of entry. In my elementary school on Florida classroom were joined by small halls between them (where single bathrooms were) that had their own doors. So you could go in that hall and come out of another classroom. I always thought that was pretty smart. Mischievous kids used this feature to hide from teachers. Me, I was mischievous kids lol

Schools can already go on lockdown and bar you from entry today. And yes, the Uvalde cops were useless and should never be used as an example of a typical response.

I'd be happy with schools getting more magnetic doors and fewer points of entry before implementing an armed teacher program.

Of course the active shooter response of Run, Hide, Fight should still be followed. I'm less worried about a gunfight in a classroom than I am worried about them being left in that classroom like sitting ducks. I would hope that the improved physical security would prevent entry or limit entry to the point that an armed teacher would never need to use their firearm.

 

[spamking]

there school districts around here are sane.

How many have an SRO and/or metal detectors?

 

[Sinister]

If you think a teacher (well most of them) wouldn't fight to the death to defend their kids you're not seeing the big picture. It's not about combat training. They'd respond exactly like most parents would in this situation. If we were left with no other choice but to defend a classroom of kids with a firearm that's exactly what most of us would do. There is no way I'd see any teacher or parent telling everyone to cower in the corner and hope for the best.

Just imagine how many lives could've been saved in any of the previous high-profile shootings if a teacher in a classroom that was attacked had been armed.

Come on man, you're speaking very cavalier of little more than an instinct in a situation where not only is the teacher going to be at a tactical disadvantage, but comically out-gunned if we go by HOW these things are carried out. A teacher has a concealed glock, a shooter enters the room with an AR, where is the shooter facing and where is the teacher facing? That AR is fired in the direction of kids with the added intensity that the teacher is now firing back, or has fired first at a shooter who is likely also wearing a vest.

And people can say they would do whatever they think but no one knows for certain until it happens. Trained professionals freeze all the time, or miss otherwise easy shots. We're expecting amateurs who are minimally trained to engage among children. This is an appeal to emotion argument, the best logic behind it is the idea that potential shooters hearing a teacher MIGHT have a gun deters them from doing the crime, which is a nonsense premise because if guns deterred crime the US would be the safest country in the World.

 

[spamking]

If you have a room full of 100 angry people and there are no guns...what are the odds somebody is going to get shot? Zero.

If you throw 50 guns into that room, what are the odds somebody is going to get shot? A lot higher than zero.

Um, if you have a room full of 3rd graders with no place to run or hide and they can't secure their classroom what are THEIR odds of getting shot when a gunman gains entry and their teacher is unarmed and can't fight back?

 

[spamking]

Come on man, you're speaking very cavalier of little more than an instinct in a situation where not only is the teacher going to be at a tactical disadvantage, but comically out-gunned if we go by HOW these things are carried out. A teacher has a concealed glock, a shooter enters the room with an AR, where is the shooter facing and where is the teacher facing? That AR is fired in the direction of kids with the added intensity that the teacher is now firing back, or has fired first at a shooter who is likely also wearing a vest.

And people can say they would do whatever they think but no one knows for certain until it happens. Trained professionals freeze all the time, or miss otherwise easy shots. We're expecting amateurs who are minimally trained to engage among children. This is an appeal to emotion argument, the best logic behind it is the idea that potential shooters hearing a teacher MIGHT have a gun deters them from doing the crime, which is a nonsense premise because if guns deterred crime the US would be the safest country in the World.

You're completely ignoring where I've said that physical security should be to the point where an armed teacher would be the last line of defense. Again, I'm not saying the teachers should be the first responders in this case unless it's absolutely necessary. It should never get to the point of a teacher needing to pull a firearm to defend their classroom, but if it does the limited entry and locked fire doors, etc. would offer an advantage to the teachers. I think you are greatly discounting what lengths a teacher would go to to defend their kids.

You don't know what type of training someone has . . . . some NRA-certified shooters who are everyday Joes working in an office or heck, maybe even coaching your kid's football team with more training under their belts than some cops.

We both know what other influences are in play when it comes to guns and whether they deter anything or not.